Key Themes of this Session:
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What are wikibooks, and in what ways can they refactor writing and research assignments?
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What are the pedagogical implications of having students collaborate on wikitexts?
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How might wikitexts become a valuable supplement (or, polemically, a replacement) for commercially published textbooks?
Useful Links
-- Start log: Thursday, February 16, 2006 4:27:07 pm English MOO time --
mattbarton arrives from Poster Session Rooms
metaspencer waves to Matt
mattbarton waves.
Pete arrives from Poster Session Rooms
mattbarton says, "Love the icon, Pete."
Pete says, "Howdy, folks. Thanks!"
mattbarton says, "I didn't realize you could customize this so much. It's great"
metaspencer says, "The textbook wiki is a grrrreat idea!"
mattbarton says, "How have you been, Spencer?"
Pete says, "It's cool all right. Lennie's the wizard."
metaspencer says, "So, here's my question about the cool textbook wiki ..."
mattbarton says, "Ah, okay."
metaspencer says, "What happens when a participant imagines contributing to the textbook, but imagines the textbook as configured in a very different way?"
mattbarton says, "Configured in a very different way?"
Pete says, "hmm. Like including apparatus with each "chapter," rather than at the end?"
metaspencer says, "You know, like ordered quite differently ... or having an alternative structure"
mattbarton says, "Some people have mentioned in the discuss pages that they'd like a radical revision. Yet, they haven't done so."
mattbarton says, "No one is really in charge of it, so if enough people got on the ball, it could change drastically."
Pete says, "But since all the content's already there, you could just do a new page that implemented a new structure right? Theoretically you could have hundreds of tables of contents, each with a different order."
metaspencer says, "But there seems to me something about wikis that keeps radical, structural changes from happening ..."
mattbarton says, "What I was going for was a synthesis of about five comp texts I had in my office. The students mostly followed that leaad"
metaspencer says, "I might be wrong, but I wouldn't want to make major changes given all the hard work that was done so far ..."
mattbarton says, "Yes, you're right, Pete. That's what the Wikiportals are all about."
mattbarton says, "A more complete-looking page does seem more intimidating to edit."
metaspencer says, "Ahh, I like the new-page idea (thanks Pete!); yes, it could be reconfigured in two or more places"
mattbarton says, ""For Current Traditionalists, Click here." "
Pete says, "so it ain't the wiki--it's the user. Maybe. Of course, if the tech doesn't allow for easy re-imagining, then it won't work well. "
metaspencer says, "Funny!"
mattbarton says, "Yes, but how do you do that."
mattbarton says, "You might end up with some joker saying, "Here's a blank wiki, class. That's the textbook. Imagine it!""
Pete says, "And that's something I've been thinking about lately--how possibility functions as an aspect of technology. Most tech is configured for a specific purpose (screwdrivers, for instance)."
metaspencer says, "And of course, different structures for the "book" would invite different types of contributions. Say, more visual ones or more alphabetic ones."
mattbarton says, "Yes, and whatever those possibilities are, there are people willing to find new ones and subvert the old."
Pete says, "but maybe there's a way to include re-imagining and re-purposing as an affordance of the tool itself."
mattbarton says, "I like the idea of more affordances."
Pete says, "I find this MOO to be a little constrictive for some things, but great for others."
metaspencer says, "I'd love it if our contributions (in this pane) were separated with some space; perhaps bolded names would help too"
mattbarton says, "Yes, it's totally constrictive when it comes to playing Civilization IV (thank God)."
metaspencer says, "I saw a presentation from some folks at Penn State who are using wikis in all fyc classes; students in the courses seem reluctant to tweak the wiki.content"
mattbarton says, "Ah, yes, Rich Doyle is doing fantastic things at Penn."
metaspencer says, "totally"
Pete [to metaspencer]: yep. From what I understand, the MOO runs off code in ASCII text that's at least ten or more years old.
mattbarton says, "I haven't done much wiki with the FYC students yet. Well, they use them sometimes without being aware they're wikis."
Paula arrives from Poster Room 2
Pete says, "That's another thing: if you fail to recognize a tool as having a particular purpose, does that constrict its potential or open it up?"
metaspencer says, "Not aware! That's funny. I find that w/ seniors in my classes, too. They have no idea that they're looking at a blog, or a homepage, or a wiki."
mattbarton says, "Charlie and Clancy wanted to wear shirts that said, "Moo is Dead. Long Live the Blog." "
mattbarton says, "I have some students this semester who are really resisting the wiki."
mattbarton says, "I tell them resistance if futile, but that's not effective when I'm not a cyborg."
metaspencer says, "Or a governator"
Pete says, "Perhaps you should tell them there's no rest for the wikid."
mattbarton says, "I'm finding it more difficult to have students work on wikipedia pages than it was having them do the wikibook."
Pete says, "something wikid this way comes?"
metaspencer dying here
metaspencer says, "Okay, I'm off to check out the other posters. What the folks at WIDE looks pretty spiffy"
metaspencer says, "Thanks for this chat and your neat stuff, Matt!"
mattbarton says, "I heard a song at the last C&W called "Wiki Woman" that was based on "Wiked Woman." Hilarious stuff."
Pete says, "lol"
mattbarton says, "Yes, we need to talk more about affordances, I can see that clearly."
metaspencer leaves for Conference Center Lobby
mattbarton says, "Pete, Paula, are you working wikis into your teaching?"
Paula says, "only to refer to them in class, but not at all in the way described here"
mattbarton says, "I'd love to get more people involved with this. I'm teaching another computers and english class next fall, and would love to collaborate with some other classes at other us."
mattbarton says, "u's, rather."
Paula says, "matt this is your poster, correct?"
mattbarton says, "Guilty as charged."
Paula says, "even though i've printed up every piece of documentation i'm a bit disoriented"
Paula says, "what do you have in mind for "collaborating with some other classes"?"
mattbarton says, "That's to be expected. Wikis are very dynamic, malleable things."
Pete says, "i'm not teaching right now, so I'm not exposing students to much of anything."
mattbarton says, "Well, other classes could take on a similar assignment and coordinate with each other to improve/extend/re-imagine the wiki book."
mattbarton says, "Pete, is TTU still doing TOPIC?"
Pete says, "yes sir. I'm a grader with topic this semester."
mattbarton says, "Do you like the system?"
Pete says, "I sure do. I really, really do. I've taught in various modes, including ITV, WebCT, traditional, hybrid, etc. But the grading and feedback has always been what it's always been."
Pete says, "one teacher trying to wade through five sections' worth of comp papers."
Pete says, "with TOPIC, a grader has a quota of grading to do each week. you provide feedback on papers submitted anonymously (anon to the grader, that is)."
mattbarton leaves for Poster Session Rooms
mattbarton arrives from Poster Session Rooms
Paula says, "i know TOPIC has been discussed in lots of places...but as someone who actually teaches in it, do you think students respond differently to your anon comments?""
mattbarton leaves for Poster Session Rooms
mattbarton arrives from Poster Session Rooms
Pete says, "You know, since the grading is anon I don't know how they respond. I'm sure they do respond differently, but the fact is I don't know in what way. I'd ask Rich Rice, Rebecca Rickly, Fred Kemp, or Susan Lang. You know that crowd?"
mattbarton (asleep) has disconnected.
Paula says, "well that makes perfect sense that as an anon responder you wouldn't know! I better drink some more coffee. "
Paula says, "yes perhaps I'll ask one of them if I get a chance."
Paula says, "nice job on your poster, i will consider wikis for some classes next year"
Pete says, "Fred's out in the lobby, I think. And I've got to scram. I need to check on one of the presenters. I'm one of the confernce organizers. . ."
Pete leaves for Poster Session Rooms
Paula leaves for Poster Session Rooms
mattbarton has connected.
mattbarton says, "hello?"
Pete arrives from Poster Session Rooms
Pete says, "you call?"
Pete hopes he appeared magically, but fears he just blundered in.
mattbarton says, "Oops, maybe. I was trying to tell you that I got logged off accidentally"
Pete says, "ah. Everything OK? "
mattbarton says, "yes, sorry."
mattbarton says, "I thought "page" meant simply to tell someone something that isn't in the room"
mattbarton says, "Should probably read those pesky instructions. "
Pete says, "you'll find that some thing simply won't crash your session at all, and that others will get you booted out faster than starting a fight in a bar."
Pete says, "We have instructions? Hmmm."
Pete says, "Honestly, I'm not sure I've ever read them."
mattbarton says, "Moos make it easy to see-and-do."
Pete says, "They surely doo. "
Pete says, "I've got to skeedaddle back to poster room 2. Let me know if you need anything."
Pete leaves for Poster Session Rooms
mattbarton says, "Okay! Thanks for stopping by."
Sally arrives from Poster Session Rooms
mattbarton (asleep) has disconnected.
mattbarton has connected.
mattbarton says, "My computer is going nuts."
Sally says, "Hi Matt. You are getting knocked off?"
mattbarton says, "Yes, repeatedly."
Sally says, "argh"
mattbarton says, "maybe this will stabalize now."
mattbarton says, "I'm using Firefox; hope that isn't the problem."
Sally says, "You might try IE. You can come in as a guest under a second browser window, if you want to give it a try. "
mattbarton says, "If I suddenly stop responding, you'll know it's nothing personal. "
Sally says, "ha!"
mattbarton says, "I will next time this goes out. I could use a text-line telnet program I suppose."
mattbarton says, "So, are you into wikis?"
Sally says, "Matt, I was introduced to Wikis by Tommy Hern last summer"
Sally says, "We used one to organize our work with this committee"
mattbarton says, "I've been using them for about 4 years now"
mattbarton says, "Awesome"
Sally says, "And just recently I started to "play" with a pbwiki for a service group I belong to. "
mattbarton says, "They are in the news constantly these days."
mattbarton says, "pbwiki?"
mattbarton says, "I must admit, I haven't been keeping up with all the different wiki server apps."
Sally says, "your poster is just what I need to work toward incorp. a wiki into my courses"
mattbarton says, "thanks. I was mentioning earlier that I've been wanting to do a type of collaboration with other classes"
Sally says, "pbwiki I guess it stands for peanut butter, as in as easy as making a pb sandwich: free wiki!"
mattbarton says, "It'd be great to have my students discussing and collaborating with classes from other schools"
mattbarton says, "Mmm, like that analogy. "
mattbarton says, "I've been using tikiwiki for my own stuff"
Sally says, "matt i would be interested in a collaboration in the future."
mattbarton says, "What classes do you teach"
Sally says, "Years ago i did a similar collog. with fresh student using webpages and email."
mattbarton says, "I'm teaching the course again in the fall and have been trying to decide whether to continue this project or start something new."
Sally says, "composition skills, which is required of students who fail our writing exit exam, and fresh. comp"
Sally says, "are your classes online?"
mattbarton says, "No, not yet"
mattbarton says, "I was just noticing that someone tried to vandalize the wikibook! Good thing someone changed it back. :-)"
Sally says, "Oh my! ha! Matt, I better go check in with the presenter I am assisting next session. I'll see you later this day."
mattbarton says, "I've been wanting to teach an online course here at SCSU. "
mattbarton says, "Okay! I'm about to check out too"
Sally leaves for Poster Room 4
Rich arrives from Poster Session Rooms
mattbarton says, "help communication"
mattbarton says, "Wow, I'm having technical difficulties this morning"
mattbarton says, "Are you there, Rich?"
mattbarton says, "hmm"
mattbarton scratches his head.
Rich is hear.
Rich says, "er, here."
mattbarton says, "I keep getting logged off"
Rich says, "just look through your stuff. Impressed as usual."
Rich says, "Lennie mi ght have advice."
Rich will brb.
Rich leaves for Poster Session Rooms
Talinn arrives.
first_Guest arrives from Poster Session Rooms
first_Guest says, "Is this working?"
Talinn (asleep) has disconnected.
Talinn has connected.
first_Guest has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove first_Guest.
Talinn leaves.
mattbarton (asleep) has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to cart mattbarton off to bed.
WilliamHD arrives from Poster Room 4
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RKoch arrives from Poster Session Rooms
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Joanna arrives from Session Room 3
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Heather arrives from Poster Session Rooms
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Robbin arrives from Poster Session Rooms
Robbin leaves for Poster Session Rooms
mattbarton arrives from Poster Session Rooms
mattbarton will be away from its keyboard for a bit.
mattbarton will be away from its keyboard for a bit.
mattbarton says, "hi"
Robbin arrives from Poster Session Rooms
Robbin leaves for Poster Session Rooms
mattbarton sighs.
mattbarton yawns.
Pam arrives from Poster Session Rooms
mattbarton waves.
Pam says, "Hi Matt. "
mattbarton says, "Hi"
Pam says, "I'm reading through the presentation! Have been hearing great things."
Shaun arrives from Poster Session Rooms
mattbarton says, "Thanks. I really can't take credit for this work, though. I only provided the tools; the students did the rest."
mattbarton says, "Hey, Shaun. I see you're from RPI."
Shaun says, "Hi Matt, yep... just now finishing up.. defending very soon."
mattbarton says, "Do you like RPI? "
Shaun says, "I think it's a great program... Excellent faculty w/ plenty of time for grad students"
mattbarton says, "Yes, it looks like a fine program. They were hiring last year. Did they ever fill the position?"
Shaun says, "not last year, but I think they might this year... I've not heard the latest, I'm in Chicago at DePaul U now."
mattbarton says, "BTW, I'm glad you and Pam showed up. I was getting lonely in here! "
Shaun says, "heh"
mattbarton says, "That's no fair. You are right close to 4C's."
Shaun says, "I took a look at this 'poster' earlier... I'm interested in the idea of Wikis, but haven't learned the technology yet"
mattbarton says, "Then I have good news for you. The tech is very easy."
Pam says, "Hi Shaun...I was reading."
Shaun says, "sure, I'm close to Cs, the year I don't have to pay my own way! :-("
Shaun says, "howdy Pam"
mattbarton says, "If you have any questions, please let me hear them."
Pam says, "I'm in the PhD program at TTU right now."
Pam says, "online"
Shaun says, "I just saw that Pam, I've got some good friends there"
Shaun says, "Angela Eaton (an RPIer) and Kirk St. Amant"
Pam [to mattbarton]: I'm familiar with wikis but haven't used them to teach yet.
Pam says, "I'm working on a project with Angela, and Kirk is my committee chair."
mattbarton says, "They can be challenging to teach with."
Shaun says, "yeah, lets talk about these wikis... what do you see as the main advantage, Matt"
mattbarton says, "Collaboration is the key advantage by far."
Shaun [to Pam]: small field ;-)
Shaun says, "what do they learn by collaborating this way as opposed to more traditional ways?"
mattbarton says, "Good management is probably the biggest challenge."
Shaun says, "sure"
Pam says, "The management can become time consuming."
Shaun says, "How steep is the learning curve?"
mattbarton says, "They learn how to negotiate their proposed changes; join a community; learn acceptable ways to contribute. I'd say it's a rhetorical education in a bag."
Pam [to Shaun]: What is your last name?
Shaun says, "I picked up blogging pretty quick"
Shaun [to Pam]: Slattery
Pam says, "Thanks. Nice to meet you."
Shaun says, "you too!"
mattbarton says, "Since both of you managed to log in here, find your way to this session, and talk--I'd say you will find wikis trivial to use."
Pam says, "I am in a class right now that is working completely off wiki for discussion. We came up with our own management structure."
Shaun says, "that's good to hear.. one of the more challenging parts of being a C&W person is keeping up w/ new technologies"
Shaun says, "wow, that's neat Pam"
Pam nods...that's for sure...I always feel behind.
mattbarton says, "Compared to stuff like Flash and PHP, wiki is a cinch."
Shaun says, "I bet as a distance student, you really learn the pros and cons of various technologies"
Pam says, "It was pretty cool...we brainstormed purposes and then made the affordances."
Pam says, "I don't know Flash and PHP...yet."
mattbarton says, "I tinkered with it, but now that Adobe has bought them, I might wait to see what happens before investing more time."
Shaun says, "my partner's work group (she's a computer programmer) uses a wiki to manage their code documentation"
Pam [to Shaun]: A real insider's view with plenty of crash and burns.
mattbarton says, "Shaun, that's a very popular use for wikis."
mattbarton says, "Creating documentation is a good way to use wikis."
Shaun says, "they sometimes seem to struggle over "authority" to edit"
Shaun says, "despite authority being granted to all equally by the tech"
mattbarton says, "Good wikians know how to leave cues and suggestions to help others contribute."
Shaun says, "I'd love to see a Wiki Protocol Guide"
Pam [to mattbarton]: Interesting comment. Mastering the cues takes practice.
mattbarton says, "Well, the ability to make changes doesn't equal authority. People will change them back if they don't meet their expectations."
Shaun says, "lol"
mattbarton says, "There are plenty of help pages on Wikipedia to help new people get involved."
Pam says, "Wiki etiquette."
Shaun says, "I'll have to look into it when I finish the diss"
Pam says, "Build your diss on wiki..."
mattbarton says, "Wiki etiquette is key. Most people assume it's anarchy. That's far from the reality."
Shaun says, "can't now, gotta get done!"
mattbarton says, "That was the subject of my diss, Pam. Unfortunately, the darn thing is being held up at MIT."
Shaun says, "ugh"
Pam says, "Ahhh...did you build your diss on wiki?"
mattbarton says, "No, but I wrote about the possibiltity of doing so."
mattbarton says, "I saw my work as a transitional narrative."
Pam says, "I'm just starting...and am really thinking about it."
Pam says, "Do you have any advice?"
mattbarton says, "Doing a diss in a wiki requires a lot of re-imagining from the administrative POV"
Pam says, "...using the wiki that is."
mattbarton says, "are you into rhetoric?"
Shaun says, "Cool stuff, Matt. I want to make sure I hit the other posters, but thanks for sharing.""
Pam says, "I will focus on the rhetoric of intercultural online dialog."
mattbarton says, "Thank you, Shaun"
Shaun waves goodbye
Shaun leaves for Poster Session Rooms
mattbarton says, "Pam, you might be interested in the rhetoric wikiportal"
mattbarton says, "I have a website here that might interest you"
mattbarton says, "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Rhetoric"
Pam says, "Thanks, Matt! I've just been paged."
Pam says, "I must run to the auditorium."
mattbarton says, "Ok"
Pam leaves for Poster Session Rooms
Paula arrives from Poster Session Rooms
Paula leaves for Poster Room 4
Charlotte arrives from Poster Session Rooms
mattbarton says, "Hello, Charlotte"
Charlotte says, "hi matt I wished I had more time to look at your poster in particular. this is an interesting topic."
Charlotte says, " I just saw the first German wikibook two days ago on the German wikipedia. Great idea to compose books."
mattbarton says, "Thanks!"
mattbarton says, "It's been a very exciting project for me. "
Charlotte says, "though they seem rather dependent on the categories one gives for sorting content."
mattbarton says, "Yes, you're right there. I struggled with that issue."
mattbarton says, "I hadn't thought so much before about how taxonomies can impose a sort of hierarchy on you."
first_Guest arrives from Auditorium
Charlotte says, "yes this kind of diminishes the degree of freedom. Is it easy to rename sections and resort subsections once it is started?"
Charlotte [to mattbarton]: there should be a procedure at work like with the rdf code language for ontologies.
Charlotte says, "I think the major implications for students are sorting and categorizing content."
Charlotte waves at first_guest
Charlotte says, "what happened to matt?"
Charlotte says, "hm I think I will go back to the Bar/Grill."
Charlotte leaves for Poster Session Rooms
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mattbarton says, "Oops. got logged off again"
mattbarton says, "hi"
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mattbarton posts a note on Note Board.
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Shaun says, "Heidi? You awake?""
Shaun tiptoes out of room...
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-- End log: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 3:25:16 am English MOO time --
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