There appears to be some writing on the note ...

-- Start log: Saturday, February 18, 2006 1:24:06 pm English MOO time --

Lennie says, "Recorder is on now. A bit late..."
RobinE puts on its headset.
[PANEL] Dr.Dragga says, "from Texas Tech University, here is Fred Kemp"
poetcsw arrives from Conference Center Lobby
poetcsw quietly enters.
cselfe puts on its headset.
[PANEL] Dr.Dragga says, "from the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga, here is James Inman"
Fred [to Pam]: "remind me how to get up on stage?
cselfe step up
Lennie [to Fred]: Type up
Fred steps up on the platform stage in front of Auditorium
James steps up on the platform stage in front of Auditorium
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[PANEL] Dr.Dragga says, "and from Utah State University, here is Cheryl Ball"
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Heather puts on its headset.
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Pam displays slide #8 on web:
<http://english.ttu.edu/cw/CWO2006/keys/s8.htm>.
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[PANEL] Dr.Dragga says, "and the topic that the four speakers will be addressing today is multi-layered: Computers & Writing-A Discipline? Is Computers & Writing truly a discipline? What distinguishes it from the related disciplines of Composition & Rhetoric or Technical Communication? What is the research and theory that inform its teaching and practice? "
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cselfe Claps for Cheryl, Fred and James
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Charlotte quietly enters.
cball hugs everyone
Lennie displays slide #7 on web:
<http://english.ttu.edu/cw/CWO2006/keys/s7.html>.
Dr.Dragga displays slide #7 on web:
<http://english.ttu.edu/cw/CWO2006/keys/s7.html>.
KevinJ puts on his headset.
Fred hi-fives the group, glad to have made it onto the stage
[PANEL] Dr.Dragga says, "All provocative questions! and I can't wait to see the answers that Cindy, Fred, James, and Cheryl will offer us. So let's get started."
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RobinE claps
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Robbin quietly enters.
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Pam displays slide #8 on web:
<http://english.ttu.edu/cw/CWO2006/keys/s8.htm>.
RobinE claps
[PANEL] James says, "the answer is always e. all of the above"
James grins
[PANEL] Fred says, "I gues what I'm saying with my startup comments is that it is irrelevant to me whether C&W is a discipline, or English, or any other 'field.' I suspect the entire idea of 'discipline' will largely become moot ideologically, functionally, or emotionally as the world of total communication really comes into play."
cselfe says, "My first question has to do with why these queries are of import to us"
Fred nods at Cindy
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[PANEL] cball says, "and i think its about us, as people, and our interdisciplinarity"
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James also wants to know how folks define "discipline" and "field," even though he argues for community
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[PANEL] Fred says, "Most new research and instructional entities at the college and university level want to be called 'disciplines' for administrative and professional advantages. It may be, however, that such sectioning off or specializing of knowledge may come to be as quaint (and constraining) as the quadrivium and trivium. "
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cselfe says, "I agree--one of the things I have always liked about this community is that we are o ut in front of change--and certainly I see disciplinarity breaking down everywhere within OSU."
[PANEL] Fred says, "If it's just for administrative benefits, then we should rethink out administrative benefits are doled out."
[PANEL] James says, "i do think people want futures in 'computers and writing,' and how those can be achieved is still a little bit nebulous, given that there is no static or labeled 'computers and writing' "
Fred agrees with Cindy
cball [to Fred]: what do you think those benefits are?
Fred [to James]: "why not just futures in computers and writing?
Fred [to cheryl]: "I think profesional organizations, and separate identities in promotion and tenure
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cselfe says, "Well, I wouldn't say ONLy for administrative purposes. People have had to defend their disciplinary knowledge to keep their jobs."
[PANEL] Fred says, "and in journals. Fortunately we've had Computers & composition for over 20 years."
cselfe says, "Yup, I think Cheryl is right!"
Fred [to cindy]: "but that's what I mean. Why?
James [to Fred]: because people want to belong, need to belong to something professional like the wonderful community that we see at this online conference, the face-to-face, etc -- that's what i'd think
[PANEL] cball says, "and Kairos for 10 years!"
Fred [to James]: "but do we need a name for that, to belong?
James agrees with cselfe about seeing disciplinarity break down lots of places
cball says that stepping on James' toes ;)
James grins at cball
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[PANEL] Fred says, "seems a lot of these people have belonged for a number of years without anything really being defined as a discipline like, Literature."
[PANEL] cball says, "i like our name, sometimes, but what makes us belong is not the name but the community, as James said."
CeeJ arrives from Conference Center Lobby
CeeJ quietly enters.
cselfe says, "Well, universities are overdetermined places--and just wishing that disciplinarity didn't exist doesn't make it so! In fact, we have to deal with the ways universities are organized, even while trying to change them."
metaspencer thinks that our activity is our center.
[PANEL] Fred says, "It's hard to work with other, older, more established disciplines, I agree. But I think they will fragment as the digital age really gets rolling."
James [to Fred]: you know, i used to think we didn't, but more and more, i think there's some need for that. benefits come with a name -- funding, recognition, association
Fred [to cindy]: "excellent word, overdetermined. Will they stay that way?
cselfe says, "I like that Metaspencer"
cball [to Fred]: it's not hard to work with older fields, i don't think.
cball [to Fred]: ok, i take that back..it IS hard to work with them, but its not undoable.
cball wavers
cselfe says, "Yes, I think you're right Fred. Here at OSu, that seems to be happening all around us!"
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Fred [to chery]: "yes, but it would be easier if we had a place with a name and an established history. But I don't think it will happen.
Fred [to cindy]: "and at Texas Tech as well.
[PANEL] cball says, "i don't see other disciplines fragmenting so much as becoming more solid against C&W folks."
Joanna puts on its headset.
Robbin puts on its headset.
[PANEL] cball says, "but, heck, we DO have an established history, even in jjust 20 years."
Fred grants Cheryl that point. But it's still early in the game. Not for him, of course....
James [to cball]: more against is interesting -- how so?
Lennie, the moderator, says, "Question from RobinE: what happens when the departments have to compete for students, faculty, and status? "
[PANEL] cball says, "other fields within english work against technology because they don't yet see how technology can be of help to redefining/updating their fields."
cselfe says, "Well, here, they seem to be dying to have us contribute. We're starting a pilot first-year composing curriculum that has multimodal digital composing as its center."
cball [to cindy]: true...some places are more accepting than others. USU is middle terriroty, perhaps.
[PANEL] Fred says, "status is a tough one, because that comes with time and calcification. For students and faculty? Consider technical communication and rhetoric's position at Tech. We've thrived, and is TCR a discipline?"
[PANEL] Fred says, "we're in the english department."
[PANEL] James says, "RobinE's question is a good one, and i'm thinking if award structures, status structures, etc. are tied to disciplines, rather than communities of interest, the issue is always going to be how communities find those things"
Lennie, the moderator, says, "Question from Shaun: I wonder who Chery sees as who is against us"
CeeJ tiptoes out.
CeeJ leaves for Main Entrance
Fred [to cheryl]: "I agree that other disciplines work against technology, but I'm not sure circling the wagons into a discipline will prevent that.
Fred [to James]: "makes sense, but still....
[PANEL] cball says, "d'oh. i've come across as us vs. them and I didn't intend that. but I can see other faculty in depts who WANT those resources that we sometimes get."
Martine puts on its headset.
cselfe says, "Well, you always have to make a case for the import of you work--and you always have to teach other folks exactly how to see it and appreciate it within an intellectual context. "
[PANEL] James says, "it's tough, too, because we also don't want to be 'support' for other disciplines -- goes to RobinE's question -- sometimes the 'support' role is how c&w gets configured"
cball [to Shaun]: perhaps the best way to answer that is to say that those who are against us are those who don't understand why change is good.
cball nods to cindy's comment
Shaun nods
Fred [to cheryl]: "and why change is good is a reason I don't want us to search out an outmoded designation. We'll get on board just about the time the ship goes down.
Lennie, the moderator, says, "Question from Marie: 20 years is relatively new, but it's a foundation. What steps can we take to make "outsiders" aware of this?"
[PANEL] James says, "and we do build credibility by acknowledging when particular kinds of changes aren't right, aren't the way to go -- that way, we're seen as pursuing smart changes, right changes"
[PANEL] cball says, "so we have to get out of the support role (what James mentioned) and make sure our colleagues understand what it is we do (cindy's point)"
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In the distance you hear someone's alarm clock going off.
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[PANEL] Fred says, "We cannot have a Computers and Writing "Discipline," if we want one, until we escape the aesthetic individualism of literary studies and recognize the power of systems and organizations and entrepreneural thinking. I don't see that happening as long as we reside (are tolerated) in Literature departments."
RobinE says, "ask at Okahoma State, there is a constant struggle to justify tech writing and composition. Maybe Computers and Writing is a way to bridge the gap between the two, where we can work together instead of against each other."
cball [to Fred]: yes, very true. for instance, what will my little favorite subspeciality "new media" be in 5 years? someething different entirely
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Fred [to cheryl]: "exactle
[PANEL] Fred says, "exactly"
cselfe says, "Well, I know that people like Hedi M. and Danielle D. and Ammy K-H (and I think a few other folks) are busy writing a second history of C&W--to update the work that Charlie, Gail, Paul, and I did."
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James thinks one way to think about Marie's question is to do more to promote that history, write and rewrite it into academic histories, put it on the radar screens of those around us -- using our interdisciplinary community
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[PANEL] cball says, "in response to marie's great question, I'll second james' comment...."
Fred [to cindy]: "yes, a new stage is going on. But as I say in my intro, are we just going off into our own techno-entities? Are we generating real, substantial change in writing instruction?
[PANEL] James says, "there's so much that can be archived at a place like computersandwriting.org, so much history that can be constructed"
cselfe says, "I think we're front and center in that radar, James."
Lennie, the moderator, says, "Question from Pam: And what are the smart changes?"
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[PANEL] cball says, "and say that, for instance, CCCC has lots of awards for senior colleagues, but none for less senior colleagues who are changing things rapidly as well. so we have to start from within our larger community of CCCC"
Lennie, the moderator, says, "Question from poetcsw: Isn't first-year comp, with or without tech components, the primary source of enrollment in English courses? Hence, we provide the 'revenue' for English, at least within the Calif. State system. But, we have fewer funding opportunities."
Fred [to Pam]: "for me they're organizationally, systems thinking. Not a lot of support there for that, but I believe it is coming. Knowledge management.
cselfe says, "Why fewer poetcsw? Fewer than whom?"
Joanna tiptoes out.
Joanna leaves for TechnoRhetorician's Bar and Grill
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[PANEL] James says, "to pam's question . . . for me, the smart changes are those that work, like fred has argued for. we'll make mistakes -- everyone who tries to innovate does. but if we're always arguing for technology for technology's sake, for example, then most of our ideas will end up getting ignored as 'oh, there goes the technology person again'"
cball [to poetcsw]: very true, FYC is the funding base for lots of departments. more of those FYC classes shold be reconfigured to be more like C&C FYC classes. Like OSU, Kent State, UIUC.
poetcsw says, "Seeking funding for CW in May, Comp is not receiving funds, but all the Lit trips are funded"
Fred [to poetcsw]: "and actually, Locke Carter has done some real-world figures for composition at Tech, and it doesn't bring in as much money as myth would have it. Breaking even, actually.
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cball nods to Fred.
cselfe says, "Yup--I think you are right, James. So I think we need to argue for good teaching, and preparing students to enter a world that demands a different set of digital communication abilities and understandings."
James has seen a surprising number of compositionists/rhetoricians who resist computer technologies -- not trying them and deciding against them, but refusing to try them -- almost the 'neo-luddite' stereotype
cball thinks FYC brings in as much money as goes out.
cball wonders who james is hanging out with! ;)
James agrees with cselfe that outcomes and preparation are a great way of framing those arguments
[PANEL] cball says, "that's true, James. Sad, still, that there are luddites in the world."
James laughs, grins at cball
Fred [to cindy]: "and I think smart teaching eschews the mythology of the individual teacher as bastion of talent and thinks more about how an entire program works, or an entire field works. That's controversial, of course.
cselfe says, "I guess I don't blame them for resisting technology--it's what we like, but not necessarily what turns others on."
Marie says, "I think part of it is that most schools try to hold down the size of comp classes, so it takes more sections and more instructors."
cselfe says, "Fred--yup, I think you are right!"
Lennie, the moderator, says, "Question from JohnW: I'm wondering if the problem isn't one of 'us vs. them,' but the need for everyone to rethink. As Fred says, literature needs to get out of the fetishizing of aesthetic individualism which creates all kinds of problems even for the study of literature. All texts, all peformances, from Xosha poet singing a praise poem to a video essay are compositions involving technological and material processes and products."
Fred [to cindy]: "ah, I disagree. I blame them for trying to keep things the same.
cball loves how JohnW writes questions.
Fred hi-fives John Waters. Couldn't have said it better.
JohnW hi-fives Fred.
Lennie, the moderator, says, "Question from Pam: Fred So the system of teaching rather than the art of teaching?"
cselfe says, "John--you are a poet at heart!"
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[PANEL] cball says, "John is write. Thats what I meant by saying that these fields need to rethink what we're doing -- all of us, including those of us responsbile for all those first-year students."
[PANEL] Fred says, "Saw Lisa do a presentation earlier dealing with cave paintings and the significance of the visual and text, and these were communal projects, not the romantic individual off cutting off ears and such."
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cselfe says, "But why do we have to let go of aesthetic appreciation?"
[PANEL] James says, "i think johnw is absolutely right that everyone should rethink. but how that's done is such a difficult art. you're new in a department, or newer, and some colleagues already have suspicions about technology. you want these colleagues to vote to keep you on staff or faculty, possibily award you promotions or tenure, etc. in some environments, that can quash innovation, even if cccc, ncte, mla, etc statements call for that sort of innovation"
cselfe says, "Does it always lead to high and low art disctinctions?"
JohnW doesn't think we need to let go of aesthetic appreciation.
Fred [to cindy]: "I think we need to resist it as the meta-narrative it has become since the early 19th century
JohnW thinks we just need to open everything up.
cball [to cindy]: it's not that we're wanting to cut off aeshtetics, but it's the ideal of individdual aesthetic creation -- the crazy/mad poet ideal that doesn't realy exist, that needs rethinking
Fred agrees with Cheryl. Exactly.
Lennie, the moderator, says, "Question from Locke: wouldn't this "discipline" advocate smart/appropriate uses of technology, enabling us to critique technology at times without being Luddite, and using technology in other instances without being "uncritically enthusiastic"?"
JohnW nods to Cheryl.
tengrrl says, "we just need to find ways to make technological appreciation an aesthetic appreciation "
cselfe says, "Fred, do you mean the single author in her garret kind of thing?"
Pam [to JohnW]: That philosophy is certainly consistent with c
[PANEL] Fred says, "And the POWER of isolation, which really works against the digital age. We are the age of working together, not off in the lonely garrett"
Fred hi-fives Cindy. Great minds.....
cball [to James]: you are so right about being new and needing tenure, etc. that's how I got labeled "quirky" in my dept. haha
Pam [to JohnW]: with the hybrization of communication.
Marie says, "I think saying 'technology is communial' is a good way to put it. Everyone can do it, not just techies."
cselfe says, "Locke--yes, I think it would!"
James likes Locke's formulation a lot for what this community should continue to do
JohnW nods to Pam.
Locke says, "meaning that C&W is not the same thing as technology advocates..."
cball [to Locke]: but aren't we already doing that? advocating smart uses of technology?
cball [to Locke]: i mean, if we do our jobs well, that's what should be happening.
Fred [to Locke]: "absolutely. Which is the problem and an argument for disciplinary status (against my own argument). We need protection against those who knee-jerk hate technology.
cselfe says, "Cheryl--I think departments need some quirky creativity--I think those flashes of brilliance are exactly what makes a marvelous teacher and scholar!"
Lennie, the moderator, says, "Question from beckster: can the pragmatists and the aesthetics be friends? How can we all appreciate each other without getting defensive, territorial, and so forth?"
Locke [to cball]: yes, but I don't want us to be in the position of saying everhytning has a high-tech solution
[PANEL] James says, "in some ways, institutional demands/politics are why it's nice that c&w functions as a community (at least to me). i enjoy having a support system that is not locked in tradition/structure/etc"
[PANEL] Fred says, "and I agree with Cheryl. So I'm back to my original position."
cball [to beckster]: No!
cball laughs
cselfe says, "Oh Backster, I hope so!! "
Locke says, "the right technology for a given writing situation may be pen and paper and we ought to be able to articulate that solution without feeling like we're Luddites"
JohnW nods to Locke.
cball wonders when all her lit colleagues who won't hear anything of it will retire....
[PANEL] Fred says, "Becky knows my feelings about this. Destroy Carthage, spread salt on the land, and let whatever grows back grow back."
cball thinks she probbaly shouldn't have said that out loud
cball laughs (with?) Fred.
Pam says, "So C&W holds a complexity...should not be over-simplified."
rylish_[Guest] wonders what's wrong with luddism. why the binary?
cselfe says, "Criminy, Fred! Why the salt? And who the hell is Carthage?"
[PANEL] James says, "with beckster's question . . . context determines that so many times. in a positive environment interested in innovation, like what johnw describes and would be truly wonderful, i think everyone could get along, or those who chose not to would be respected. the trick is finding that context."
Locke [to rylish_[Guest]]: Luddism is the uncritical denial of technology, on one end of the spectrum opposite the technological determinism of the other end
Lennie, the moderator, says, "Question from RobinE: if other disciplines, like literature, accept the technology instead of embracing it, wouldn't the department edge dangerously close to the practicality of tech writing instead of the "life of the mind" in Literature?"
Fred is tired of being attacked as an ignoramous because he hasn't written the 5000th interpretation of Moby Dick.
JohnW wonders when literature has ever been separate from technology.
rylish_[Guest] thinks that socially-aware resistance of technology for the sake of profit is sometimes a good thing.
cball [to RobinE]: no, i think there's aHUGE difference between technology for learning composing/writing and tech comm.
metaspencer reflects on the fact that many of his "literature" colleagues don't study lit so much as theory, culture, and media
Fred [to RobinE]: "I don't see that as 'dangerously' close, but advantageously close.
[PANEL] cball says, "using technology doesn't equate (to me) to the supposed practicality of tech comm because digital technologies can be used for so many kinds of composing rpactices"
cball thinks of all the liberal arts-based classes she teaches usinig technology
JohnW wonders when literature stopped being communication, a way of knowing and representing.
cselfe says, "RobinE--I so no reason why studying and writing poetry in digital environments (rather than in printed environments) would edge us closer to tech writing. The medium and the modality of composing really doesn't make anything necessarily closer to technical communication as far as I can tell."
rylish_[Guest] [to Locke]: "that's not my understanding of luddism. it see it to be highly critical and not necessarily about technology but power relationships."
James doesn't think lit, comp, rhet, any of them have ever been separate from technology -- thinks computers and other contemporary media are just sort of the latest in a broad history of major innovations/transitions that rely on technology. i often try to talk to colleagues about technologies they use other than the computer -- some really cool uses of slides and film sometimes that are really interesting pedagogically
[PANEL] Fred says, "I just don't see being 'closer' to technical communication as a problem."
cselfe says, "Fred--but you've done lots more important things!"
cball thinks James'; point is excellent
Fred [to cindy]: "not in some people's eyes, and that's the problem with the traditional departmental/disciplinary situation. We are not only fighting pragmatism but history.
[PANEL] cball says, "regarding James' point about technolog(ies) -- that;s why we're seeing more history of technologies classes come up these days."
[PANEL] Fred says, "forget the 'fighting pragnatism' there. I meant fighting for pragmatism."
[PANEL] cball says, "like Texts and TEchnologies emphasis/classes/programs"
cselfe says, "Well, technical writing, as Cheryl has pointed out, is not always the most innovative area of our profession, either! Read Adam Banks' new book about the absence of race scholarship in technical communication."
James nodsnods to fred on fighting history -- a long history with powerful divisions that are defended at what seems to be all costs sometimes
Fred [to cheryl]: "sure, and things will move in our direction. I'm just not sure why we have to sneak in their back door.
Lennie, the moderator, says, "Question from metaspencer: So given the fact that our disciplinary status remains unresolved, what are some of the neat directions y'all see this field going in?"
Locke [to rylish_[Guest]]: Whether or not Ludd and his followers' destruction of factory equipment was critical or not, I think the connotation of Luddism is that it's uncritical (and often ignorant) reaction to various technologies.
cball is afraid someone is sneaking in her back door.
cball [to Fred]: what do you mean by that?
Fred [to metaspencer]: "I love databases as heuristics for how systems operate and LEARN. the internet database with open an incredible new view of how people interact
cball [to metaspencer]: taking over!
[PANEL] cball says, "just kidding"
[PANEL] cball says, "but only a little"
metaspencer grins
Lennie notes he is getting lots of good questions but he doesn't want to barrage the panel at once.
Fred [to cheryl]: "I think trying to create us as a discipline is playing the standard, historically exclusive game.
rylish_[Guest] says, "to Locke "okay, so you're just going with the popular definition of the term. which i resist. so we would agree, but i wouldn't call uncritical resistance luddism. that's all. semantics, i guess.""
cball [to Fred]: ah i see, but then we are lucky in our field because we often traverse those exclusive boundaries fiarly easily
[PANEL] James says, "with the unresolved status, i think arguments will continue to be made that position c&w different ways, depending on the purpose. if it's a funding argument, for example. as far as directions otherwise, i definitely think more histories are needed so we have a number of varied and interestingly intersecting (or not) accounts/chronicles. "
cselfe says, "Metaspencer, I see us becoming integral to the movement of re-vising the conception of composing in universities. I think it is going to be us to helps people expand their understanding of composing beyond the alphabetic and toward the multimodal--ALL AVAILABLE MEANS, as A. said."
cball thinks about all the criss-discipline comp-rhet-tech-comm-lit-creative-writing combinations of jobs there are out there
Fred [to cheryl]: "yes, exactly. We are operating in new channels of communication and accomplishment. We need to have confidence in those and not say at some point, okay, we're all grown up now, let's join the coctail party in the paneled rec room.
[PANEL] Fred says, "Have no idea what that image means, but it came to me. My aesthetic nature."
[PANEL] cball says, "I agree with Cindy, but I also think we already ARE a discipine. I don't see that as up for debate as, perhaps, Fred would"
[PANEL] James says, "i would like to see us contribute somehow to improved labor conditions, increased opportunities for professional development and innovation, etc. these are things worth fighting passionately for. and they're things that will take time and great intellectual effort"
cball [to Fred]: we can always use cocktails.
Fred [to cheryl]: "we certainally are a discipline in our own minds. It's their minds we have the trouble with.
Lennie, the moderator, says, "Question from Marie: So is our primary challenge more of making technology less "other" than of validating ourselves? Perhaps if that barrier is removed, that would solve the rest of it."
cselfe says, "I agree, Cheryl--we have a documented history, albeit a short one, specialized knowledge, a special kind of education, a body of scholarship, journals, etc."
Fred [to James]: "agreed, and that is where we need some real solidarity. And I think higher administrators are with us.
[PANEL] cball says, "i see an impt move in our future as a discipline is to be more recognized by deans/provosts in relation to our needs within the department and how furnishing resources for us will heklp the whole dept and university"
cselfe says, "Marie--probably! I think much of what we are trying to do is invoilved with formulating our own academic identities."
James nods to fred -- thinks many more administrators would be onboard than get credit for that
beckster [to cselfe]: but we don't really have research methods that are specific to our discipline--and while Tech Com DOES, we poo-poo them because they are "corporate"....
Fred [to Marie]: "I think our emphasis on technology will always drag us down with the traditional disciplines, simply because it bespeaks a new arrangement of power and skill. But that's a temporary thing, one we can't affect one way or another. I've been accused of being a technological determinist.
cselfe says, "No, Fred--not YOU! ; )"
cball [to James]: that's true. with a little face-time and education, administrators do get it and often are enccouraging
[PANEL] James says, "i think so too, marie. and i keep going back to johnw's notion of all of us rethinking, being open. then we have more opportunities, fewer barriers"
Marie says, "I just recently shocked some profs by telling them it'd be easy to teach them to maintain their department website. They apparently thought it was a totally unmanageable foreign creature."
Lennie, the moderator, says, "Question from poetcsw: In my experience within a comp program, only one instructor tried to use tech (or even film). Does a "field" have more "authority" to call for change? Is being a recognized "field" helpful in that quest?"
Fred [to cindy]: "Hey, Cindy, I kept telling you all those years.... it's gonna happen, with us or without us.
cball [to poetcsw]: perhaps yes. calling on the body of scholarship that our field offers is one way to show that that one person might be on a good track
[PANEL] James says, "poetcsw's question is a really important one. we're only beginning to think about the advocacy that we can do as a community. that's for sure a good direction for the future, perhaps like wpa has done with its media action network"
cball nods
cselfe says, "Well, I think authority comes with good evidence and arguments! I think, for instance, that there are plenty of good arguments out there that indicate we are not doing our job if we neglect to education young people to communicate within digital and multimodal environments effectively and responsively!"

cselfe says, "Fred, you are certainly right about that!"
tengrrl says, "it wouldn't be hard to have some of you volunteer as spokespeople for NCTE on tech issues"
RobinE Cheers!
Fred [to cheryl]: "there's good scholarship in our field, but unfortunately the basis for that scholarship is often dismissed. We don't do it the way that most of the people in our departments do it. I've seen, in merit committees, very substantial work dismissed because it doesn't look like literary criticism.
[PANEL] Fred says, "More like social sciences, and that is the viper's bite in merit committees in English."
cball [to Fred]: that's a different problem, i think, with the way tenure systems are set up to reward faculty.
[PANEL] James says, "right, or in other circumstances, because it is not always empirical"
[PANEL] cball says, "I guess that gets back to your point about us being in English depts or not."
Fred [to cheryl]: "agree
[PANEL] cball says, "for instance, at USU we have a lovely tenure system where only 5 peole in the dept (whom we ask) sit on our T&{ committees and recommend us."
[PANEL] James says, "position statements, op-eds in various newspapers, letters to editors, etc: these are all things we can do that will have an impact on public perception"
cselfe says, "Well, I have seen lots and lots of tenure cases for C&W folks sail through. They have strong portfolios, strong scholarship (and in lots of different forms), and strong teaching (so strong, in fact, that folks are jealous!)"
[PANEL] Fred says, "Logan has always seemed like an very rational place to me."
Lennie, the moderator, says, "Question from beckster: I may be wrong, but it seems to me that C&W tends to "other" technical communication regularly--rather than embrace it. I don't see it as much from the other perspective--TC "othering" C&W. Why is that, do you think?"
Fred [to cindy]: "yes, that's true.
cball [to Fred]: mostly ;)
[PANEL] Fred says, "tech comm still suffers from its own history of prosaic and pedantic efforts. Most people don't know what the new tech comm is like. "
James has seen places where 'uses the computer too much' is a critique, too, though -- no kidding
cball nods to Fred
cselfe says, "I embrace technical writing--big time! But, that doesn't mean that I want it to ignore race or class issues!"
cball shakes her head at those crazy people James works with!
James [to cball]: no, no -- 'seen places'
cball [to beckster]: i'm not sure it others tech comm....
cball [to James]: oops!
RobinE nods to cselfe
James grins at cball
[PANEL] Fred says, "And I think that is part of the problem, that people assume tech comm is all about functional issues, business writing, documentation, etc. I used to think that way. The folks at texas tech have shown me how tech comm can embrace what Cindy is talking about , race and class issues, but not simply from a social engineering point of view."
cball [to beckster]: re tech comm...i don't know.. i mean I've trieed to get invovld in tech comm scholaship and it seems sometimes like its still holding on to that old model Fred alluded to.
cselfe says, "I would thinnk that the new tech comm would be moving closer to C&W--and I right?"
[PANEL] Fred says, "from a rhetorical point of view, which is better for me than trying to change human nature through first-year composition. Been arguing that for years on WPA-L"
[PANEL] cball says, "yes, exactly. Personally, I have a hard time engaging with tech comm as a field even though I teach/work in a partly tech comm position."
Fred [to cindy]: "I believe so, but I do believe that the issues you've been so strong a voice about are not being left behind.
Lennie, the moderator, says, "Question from Marie: Would our goals be best served if English was split, as a discipline, into Literature and Writing?"
Lennie, the moderator, says, "Question from Lennie: Fred, could you share what TTU is thinking of doing with its Tech Comm and Comp program?"
[PANEL] Fred says, "It's, as I say, a new kind of Technical Communication. The 'technical,' like the 'computers' in computers and writing, sends the wrong message."
James reads tech comm journals and finds a lot that's really valuable, knows less about the stc and wonders if that might be a lack-of-knowledge kind of separation that others have too
cball [to Marie]: i wish we could embrace each other -- these fields -- because I think we have lots of offer. I worry about getting stuck across campus if we migrated from the dept (emotionally, theoretically, etc.)
cselfe says, "Not from my perspective, Marie/ I think that split is faux--it just doesn't exist in my book."
JohnW nods to cball.
cball [to Marie]: and then many C&W folks could't form their own dept on campus.
Fred [to Lennie]: "this program, under the incredible direction of Carolyn Rude and then Tommie Barker and Locke Carter, is creating a new idea of what technology and writing and rhetoric all mean to each other. Love this program.
JohnW grins at cselfe.
[PANEL] James says, "i'd miss literature, to be honest, marie. i like being in an english department. "
Locke nods Cindy -- these are not disciplinary differences
Fred [to James]: "I'll still read what I read. I'm not sure I'd miss some of the characters who hide under the literary, aesthetic mantle.
James likes education, anthropology, etc. too. has the whole old-coca-cola teach-the-world-to-sing commercial in mind
cball lol
Lennie, the moderator, says, "Question from Pam: Cheryl Would you please elaborate on why you have a hard time engaging with tech com? And why you are engaged by new media and cw?"
cball thinks that being in a larger department helps us craft oour interdisciplinarity even more
cselfe says, "Well--I think what does exist is a split between people who teach students to composeto produce texts of different kinds and for different audiences and in different modalities--and those who only teach them to read."
Marie agrees, especially with James, but was intrigued by the responses.
Fred [to cindy]: "well said.
cball [to Pam]: uh, um, uh, well....(hoping she wouldn't be called on that question...)
cball [to Pam]: i find most tech comm research/scholarship boring.
cball thinks there, she said it.
metaspencer (asleep) has disconnected.
Shaun gasps
Pam says, "lol"
[PANEL] Fred says, "The interpretation of literary texts is, mor may be, a valuable thing in society. I'm not sure it is more important than teaching people how to write well in the contexts in which they will find themselves."
beckster grins
Pam says, "And it sounded painful too :-)"
James hmms. with reading being a kind of textual construction, it's fun when those lines blur sometimes
cball [to Pam]: and I think that if we want to engage students in writing/composing processes to make them better critical thinkers, then the straight-up tech comm approach isn't useufl
[PANEL] cball says, "and that's exactly why we have a dinstnction between FYC and tech comm."
SusanM tiptoes out.
SusanM leaves for Conference Center Lobby
SarahS quietly enters.
SarahS arrives.
beckster [to cball]: does that make you a TC luddite? ;-)
cselfe says, "Cheryl--I do think tech comm. scholarship can be that way--but so can a lot of C&W scholarship. Take Mary Lay's work in Tech commm--on women's technical communication. I love that stuff!"
Locke [to cselfe]: our collective fields are generally productive and I think that's a powerful bond. That's not to say that we all dont' also receive texts and analyze them, but that the aim of applied rhetorics is to make things
[PANEL] cball says, "true -- i mean, i don't claim to be a tech comm person, but then I have to speak for that discipline sometimes (a bad representative, I must say!)"
Fred [to cheryl]: "and I believe the 'stright-up tech comm approach' is simply one approach and not all that 'straight up.' Other things are going on in TC programs that loosen up the stereotypes.
[PANEL] cball says, "there's a lot that I don't know yet, but C&W and comp **appears to be** way more open to explration"
JohnW notes that one can do much more with literary texts than just interpret them a la traditional literary criticism (and by traditional I also mean poststructuralist literary theory).
metaspencer has connected.
metaspencer tiptoes out.
metaspencer leaves for Conference Center Lobby
cball nods to fred
cselfe says, "Nope--you're speaking truth about much of the work in tech comm, I think."
metaspencer arrives from Conference Center Lobby
metaspencer quietly enters.
CeeJ says, "My favorite tech comm document is Xenophon's Art of Horsemanship :-)"
Pam says, "But new trends in TC have moved from the prescriptive to more critical analysis--contextually situated."
James agrees with johnw, hopes that's a shift we'll see more and more
Lennie, the moderator, says, "Question from JohnW: If we see computer & writing, the use and study of technology in composition of all sorts, as historically situated, should not one of our goals be contextualizing that? For instance, Fred mentions databases as heuristics. Mary Carruthers has written much as the architectural mnemonic -- a predigital database -- as a compositional tool. Running with that, I find databases practices in everything from oral-formulatic composition to flickr."
Martine tiptoes out.
Martine leaves for Conference Center Lobby
JohnW grins at CeeJ.
cball wants to clarify that she doesn'
cselfe says, "John--yes, we can! You're right on there! It's only when we start to fetishize literature that I get creeped out. I really enjoy seeing and talking about the texts that students produce--and not just for me!"
[PANEL] Fred says, "a lot of what is being researched in literature, the 5000th interpretation of Moby Dick, or even some of that incomprehensible French stuff, is simply useless except to support Gerald Graff's career. We have to stop genufexing to that kind of thing."
cball doesn't think that tech comm folks are boring. she just isn't as inteersted in the kind of research going on in that field.
Fred [to cheryl]: "fair enough. but there is a lot going on in that field that deals with how people manage knowledge in groups and organizations. Not your Matthew Arnold thing, but fascinating.
cball thinks Fred really likes pissing people off ;0
cselfe says, "Well, work in any field can be boring if folks aren't trying new things.."
Lennie laughs
Fred thinks Cheryl is right
cball [to Fred]: fascinating to you
cball proclaims "it's me, not you"
RobinE tiptoes out.
RobinE leaves for Conference Center Lobby
CeeJ says, "Well, some of the historical tech comm research is drop-dead fascinating, and IMHO useful. Like my colleague Kaye Adkins is always saying, if we trace the propagandistic tech manuals of early railroad and parks service materials, we learn a lot about American politics, society, etc."
Marie says, "Even today, with all the new types of literary theory, they're still pumping out biography after biography of famous authors. Change is extremely slow."
Fred [to cheryl]: "right, and so fascinating to SOMEBODY. That's the point. It all should be the traditionally deeply rutted groove.
[PANEL] cball says, "now if Matthew Arnold managed knowledge that could be cool"
[PANEL] Fred says, "shouldn't be...."
[PANEL] James says, "i think so much of the lit argument is based on classical pedagogical models, rather than some of the more creative work that can be seen from time to time. it's the sage-on-the-stage, dry-lecture-that-does-not-engage-students model and the dearth of learning often there"
cball nods to fred
Heidi arrives from Conference Center Lobby
Heidi quietly enters.
[PANEL] James says, "new models of lit pedagogy -- interactive, constructive -- are why i enjoy being in an english department, etc"
Fred [to cheryl]: "but he didn't. He managed his narrow view of the world, which depended on his view of what the masses should be doing.
cselfe says, "James--I think you're right. It is not literary studies per se!"
cselfe says, "Hi, H!"
Heidi [to cselfe]: sorry to be late!
cselfe says, "But, Pam--I don't have 10 minutes more stuff to say!"
James wonders if anyone has more questions?
[PANEL] Fred says, "Hey, I like literary studies. Some of my best friends have been involved in literary studies. I just don't like it when those folks believe they have a lock on the way we should view the world."
JohnW says, "Arnold comes out of a tradition that sought to create a unified sense of Britishness in an Empire. He was, in that sense, managing information."
[PANEL] Fred says, "Academically. And many of them do."
James [to Fred]: absolutely
KevinJ takes off his headset. He will now be able to hear everything that's being said in Auditorium
Robbin tiptoes out.
Robbin leaves for Conference Center Lobby
Marie says, "My 9th grade English teacher was like that. Talk about managing information."
cball is sorry she brought up Arnold again, winking at JohnW
JohnW [to cball]: No. No. Most lit folks don't realize this, don't think about it.
Fred [to JohnW]: "yes, of course, to calm the masses through literary taste. It was political, but picked up by the universities as a necessary core curriculum. Get people reading aesthetically instead of marching in the streets, channel that energy. calm society
Lennie, the moderator, says, "Question from Pam: Can we wrap up with some quotes for the archives?!"
Stewart tiptoes out.
Stewart leaves for Conference Center Lobby
Robbin arrives from Conference Center Lobby
Robbin quietly enters.
[PANEL] cball says, "can I just say, did anyone read the MLA newsletter, the coluumn from Perloff?"
Pam is enjoying this very much!
Fred [to cheryl]: "missed that
James didn't
beckster hopes Cheryl will tell us what Perloff said
cselfe says, "Here's a question that I have. I am working with folks who are advocates of open source software--but I think it really makes life harder for most teachers (who haven't been trained to work with technology), who don't have the technical support they need, and how have no time to tailor the software to their environments. What do you guys think?"
cselfe says, "Chery;l, I missed that too, what did it say?"
[PANEL] cball says, "i bring it up because it seems that even within literary studies, the folks in charge (and i love Perloff's work) is out of touch with itself."
JohnW [to cball]: I skimmed it.
Heather (asleep) has disconnected.
metaspencer tiptoes out.
metaspencer leaves for Conference Center Lobby
Pete takes off its headset. It will now be able to hear everything that's being said in Auditorium
[PANEL] cball says, "she mentions how there's more Creative Writing PhDs because people love to write and read and yet reading scores are down. And my question is "why?" What are these scores saying about reading and writing and literacy? (imho, nothing)."
JohnW [to cball]: Yes, many of the lit folks are.
Marie [to cselfe]: I agree. Open source is cheaper, but it doesn't have the infrastructure of established programs. Plus, anything that takes "longer" isn't seen as good.
[PANEL] James says, "i think it's a second or third or fourth layer of technological knowledge, cindy. right now, the first technologies people encounter are often proprietary, so learning open source means learning more new things, which takes time and energy. i think people miss the mark when they try to argue that it doesn't take that much. the argument for me is: is the extra time and energy worth it?"
[PANEL] cball says, "so i think that we should move from within C&W to change what academic literacy looks like."
poetcsw says, "I think those comments on OSS are are absolutely right. Most of my fellow instructors don't even use templates or macros in Word. I just completed a survey within our Dept. of tech skills."
Heidi [to James]: and cselfe and I worry about the making of a privileged elite that makes those who don't have open source programming ability second-class somehow
[PANEL] Fred says, "I'm not a big proponent of open source or even blogs (got into a lot of trouble about that in techrhet) because I don't see pedagogies being affected."
[PANEL] James says, "i try to use open source when i can, and i support it, for sure. that time and energy are the trick, though, with colleagues who sometimes are all 'didn't i just learn dreamweaver because of you?'"
cball thinks that the archives quotes sound interesting.
Marie says, "A lot of them don't seem to use either hanging indents (Works Cited) or tab settings. Technical abilities are pretty low."
Pam steps up on the platform stage in front of Auditorium
[PANEL] Fred says, "I'm a teacher first of all, and if the technology doesn't affect teaching directly, and I can't see how blogs do that in spite of deep argument from my friend Rich Rice, then I am not interested."
Pete tiptoes out.
Pete leaves for Conference Center Lobby
cball gasps because she agrees with Fred. ;)
poetcsw says, "Marie -- indeed. I received a letter from a colleague... used spaces to center titles."
Pete arrives from Conference Center Lobby
Pete quietly enters.
Kendall takes off its headset. It will now be able to hear everything that's being said in Auditorium
[PANEL] Pam says, "We have a few minutes remaining for any concluding questions/comments."
JohnW [to Fred]: Might it be, in part, that we need time to interiorize the technologies, to figure out how to use them pedagogically?
cselfe says, "I'm with you both on that score!"
Lennie, the moderator, says, "Question from poetcsw: As an applicant to doctoral programs (from a life as a programmer), it helped me to search within the "field" of C&W. My interests in how computers enable some groups to write (academically and creatively). Being a "field" gave me a foundation for the search. Don't we use "fields" to orient ourselves within the complexity of a university?"
Sally quietly enters.
Sally arrives.
[PANEL] Fred says, "I don't think we need C&W as a discipline because....pace Cindy.... techonological determinism is going to push us all someday to the fore, and I hope I can still see and keep my chin wiped."
Marie [to poetcsw]: *shudder* We were just talking in a poster session that teachers need to model good writing and formatting for their students. This is just another example.
Sally2_[Guest] tiptoes out.
Sally2 [Guest] leaves.
Barbara (asleep) has disconnected.
cball [to poetcsw]: yes, that is how we learn how to orient ourselves (at leasst in part)
Pam displays slide #9 on web:
<http://english.ttu.edu/cw/CWO2006/keys/s9.htm>.
[PANEL] James says, "concluding comment -- hmmm. here's a try: that computers and writing is not a discipline or field can be advantageous. be part of the community, of course, but use the flexibility advantageously. use rhetorical skills to pursue funding from a broad range of sources, meet colleagues across the university, etc"

The housekeeper arrives to cart Heather off to bed.
Fred [to poetcsw]: "that's a great point, and a chink in my monolithic argument. Being a discipline would help define us to others. And we need that. Forget everything I've said up to now.
James whews
SarahS claps
cselfe says, "Well, I still think that we are a breed apart--we just seem to be interested in things that others aren't. And that's a good thing!"

Robbin says, "a round of applause""
Barbara has connected.
Robbin tiptoes out.
Robbin leaves for Poster Room 4

Pete says, "EVERYONE! Please stay tuned for an important announcement from Sally!"


Fred agrees with Cindy, as always. Or almost always
SarahS says, "hear hear"
[PANEL] Pam says, "Any other closing comments?"
cselfe says, "Geez, I sound like Martha Stuart!"
KevinJ applauds for excellant discussion
Pete glares authoritatively around the room, making sure no one leaves.
cball thinks these are all good thoughts to take under advisement.
Sally says, "There is a final presentation to be made this afternoon: "
cselfe says, "Dickie sends his greetings to everyone!"
James claps for Cheryl, Cindy, and Fred
[PANEL] Pam says, "Thank you all so much for coming, and thank you to our keynote speakers!"
Shaun takes off its headset. It will now be able to hear everything that's being said in Auditorium
cball claps for everyone
Fred bows
[PANEL] cball says, "thank you to the audience"
JohnW claps for Cindy, James, Fred, and Cheryl.
CeeJ says, "to cindy hiya's back to you and Dickie!"
[PANEL] James says, "thanks to all. this was fun!"
Paula says, "thanks, panelists"
cselfe says, "Thanks to Pam and Lennie--two of the most patient and talented people that ever lived!"
poetcsw says, "This was a fascinating experience. Wonderful opportunity to learn what I am in for... LOL!"
tengrrl applauds
cball double nods
[PANEL] Pam says, "I bow to Lennie!"
James thinks we should clap for . . . ack cselfe beat me to it
[PANEL] Fred says, "And thanks to Lennie and Pam, incredible management of this thing."
Sally says, "The organizing committee of CWonline 2006 would like to present an award in recognition of the outstanding contributions and leadership of our committee chair, Lennie Irvin ..."
James yays lennie and pam!
DavidS tiptoes out.
DavidS leaves for Conference Center Lobby
[PANEL] cball says, "i hope to see everyone f2f at the onsite conference as well!"
Sally shares a URL. (http://faculty.mwsu.edu/english/sally.henschel/lli_award.htm)
<http://faculty.mwsu.edu/english/sally.henschel/lli_award.htm >.

-- End log: Saturday, February 18, 2006 2:33:59 pm English MOO time --