-- Start log: Saturday, February 18, 2006 11:16:47 am English MOO time --

Barbara says, "ok, let's get started"
Barbara says, "Greetings everyone and welcome to Computers and Writing Online! Wed like to get started so that we have as much time as possible for the presentation and discussion. Before we get started, please take note of the announcements."
Barbara says, "Id like to introduce Lisa Baird of Purdue University North Central"
Barbara says, "She will be speaking on Pre-History and Image-Making: A Case History Examining Early Design Practices." "
Barbara says, "Lisa.."
Lbaird says, "Hello all and thank you for joining me today."
Lbaird displays slide #14 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb1.htm>.
Lbaird says, " Welcome. Thank you for joining me today. I will present my paper in three parts. At the end of each part, I welcome discussion from you all. I will show the prompts for this. "
Lbaird says, " Many thanks and many celebratory margaritas go to my tech buddies Lennie and Barbara for helping me prepare for todays session."
Lbaird says, " This is my first MOO presentation, so I am a little nervous."
Lbaird displays slide #15 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb2.htm>.
Lbaird says, " To begin then: Computer-mediated writing requires new design practices that take into account the relationship between image and text. "
Lbaird displays slide #16 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb3.htm>.
Lbaird says, " Media theorists such as Jay David Bolter, Gunther Kress, and Lester Faigley have argued that the increased use of computer-mediated writing compels the field of rhetoric and composition to consider the nature of image-making as a textual practice."
Lbaird displays slide #17 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb4.htm>.
Pete arrives from Conference Center Lobby
Lbaird says, " What should guide our design practices for this new imperative?"
Lbaird says, " Kress: The two modes of writing and of image are each governed by distinct logics, and have distinctly different affordances (1). The logic of the page and the logic of the screen are not the same. Hence, we cannot use the logic of the text to guide design practices."
Lbaird displays slide #18 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb5.htm>.
Lbaird says, " Bolter: argues that pictorial and linguistic spaces are distinctly different, though historically these spaces have had their moments of convergence, as when the Greeks decorated urns and vases with alphabetic letters (53). (See figure)"
Lbaird displays slide #19 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb6.htm>.
Lbaird says, " SEE EXAMPLE OF A GREEK URN: Achilles and Ajax play dice. Note the way in which the Greek words seem to be free-floating. The words appear to be images rather than text. This mixing of the two forms complicates the notion of a pictorial space and text space."
Lbaird says, "I welcome discussion here on this particular image. How are image and text intermixed?""
KevinJ says, "Interesting. Was this intermixing common? Or just on this media?"
Lbaird says, "That's a good question. Greek urns are commonly used as examples of this intermixing. There may be other examples such as inscriptions, etc. that intermix the two."
Pete [to Lbaird]: Are Achilles and Ajax talking? Is that why the text is positioned that way?
Lbaird says, "They are playing dice."
Pete says, "Right--but what do the words say? "
Lbaird says, "Perhaps the Greek words record their conversation.""
Lbaird says, "I don't have a translation."
Barbara says, "the words above them...are they captions? or descriptions of Achilles and Ajax perhaps or of the action?"
Lbaird says, "Perhaps captions of their actions. They are, after all, the chief heroes of the Iliad."
Pete says, "This reminds me a great deal of cartoons. It's startling how much."
KevinJ says, "Do we have any copies of Greek texts, other than carved solid forms? What are they like?"
Lbaird says, "Greeks were using all kinds of writing materials -- stone, wax, urns. Later, papyrus scrolls were added to their repertoir. Much was lost, however, when the Alexandrian library burned."
Barbara says, "do you know if there are additional images on the vase? perhpas this is one of a sequence in the dice game"
Lbaird displays slide #20 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb7.htm>.
Lbaird says, "About additional images - yes, the images circumscribe the entire vase, though I can't remember what the other images depict."
Lbaird says, " Faigley: sees the two forms operating holistically. Word and image have always existed together and jointly influence meaning-making."
Lbaird says, " Modern design practices in the computer space are aimed at recreating the typographic page. Despite the ease with which the computer screen lends itself to the display of motion pictures and animation, design practices continue to emphasize typographic features of the printed page such as columnar arrangement and design along Cartesian coordinates in the vertical and horizontal. How can we re-think the writing space of the computer to take advantage of this new writing space? One way is to consider the writing space of other cultures and other time periods. "
Lbaird says, " All three theorists agree that historical examples will help us understand the relationship of word and image."
Lbaird says, " Given the conversations about word/image relationships, my claim is this: although the field of rhetoric and composition is making some progress in re-thinking the relationship of word and image, much more could be done. "
Lbaird says, " Part of re-thinking the relationship of word and image involves re-imagining the writing space of the computer. The capabilities of this new writing space offer a much wider range of word and image designs than that afforded by the page. "
Lbaird says, " The next section deals with the properties of this oldest of writing spaces: Upper Paleolithic Cave Art. Looking at the image-making of this historical time can help us think about image-making in our own writing space."
Lbaird displays slide #21 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb8.htm>.
Lbaird displays slide #22 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb9.htm>.
Lbaird says, " Considering examples of writing spaces that pre-date the page can help us re-imagine the space of the computer. I want to examine the earliest writing space that existed, the writing space used by Upper Paleolithic artists in their designs of CAVE ART."
Lbaird displays slide #23 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb10.htm>.
Fred (asleep) has disconnected.
Lbaird says, " The earliest example of image-making is that of Upper Paleolithic humans, particularly those who lived in the region between France and Spain, dating from 15,000 to 30,000 b.c. "
Fred has connected.
Fred leaves for Conference Center Lobby
Fred arrives from Conference Center Lobby
Lbaird says, " The Upper Paleolithic people created images that ranged from simple line drawings to the impressive cave art of Lascaux with its enormous painted frescoes and the Hall of the Bulls."
Lbaird says, "The example here is Lascaux cave, Hall of the Bulls. "
Lbaird says, " The early artists paid attention to the COMPOSITION of their work. For example, the artists of the Hall of the Bulls (see image) arranged the animals in specific groups. Two groupings of animals seem to be facing each other along the rock wall, one group on the right-hand wall, the other on the left. The two groupings give the sense that one is inside a cavalcade of animals moving forward toward a narrow opening in the rock wall. The opening leads to a tunnel connecting the Rotunda to the rest of the cave."
Lbaird says, "It is difficult to judge the scale of the artwork from photographs."
Lbaird says, "Let me try to give you a sense of the size of the images."
Lbaird displays slide #24 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb11.htm>.
Lbaird says, " The images of cave art are larger than life. One aurochs bull, for instance, measures 18 feet from nose to tail (David Lewis-Williams). "
Lbaird says, " The subject of Upper Paleolithic art is mostly large herbivores such as bison, horses, and deer. But these artists also combined abstract figures with pictures, indicating that humans had already begun to formulate complex interplays between image and sign. "
Lbaird displays slide #25 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb12.htm>.
Lbaird says, " Cave art expert Andre Leroi-Gorhan, who has studied examples of these signs, believes they are schematized symbols for male and female. Some signs are associated with animal images."
Lbaird says, " The organization of these signs within the caves and their association with various images indicate that the use and drawing of signs were systematic. "
Lbaird says, " The evidence showing an association between signs and images indicates that the artists were following rudimentary conventions."
Lbaird displays slide #26 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb13.htm>.
Lbaird says, " Evidence of repeated designs and signs in various cave passages suggests that the writing space of the cave was a conceptual unity. In other words, Upper Paleolithic artists were designing their scenes influenced by a notion of a message space that spanned several chambers (sometimes several miles) and included various sections of the cave."
Lbaird says, " Thus, the early artists had sophisticated ideas about arrangement, scale (or emphasis), and coherence. We would recognize these three features as part of composition. But the three-dimensional space of the cave causes these features to take on new relationships."
Lbaird displays slide #27 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb14.htm>.
Lbaird says, " One of the most important considerations of cave art is the use the early humans made of the materials they incorporated into their image-making. "
Lbaird says, " The materials included outcroppings of rock and limestone stalagmites, natural features of cave walls, and even the space of the cave itself. To these ancient artists, the cave wall was not a tabula rasa, as rock art expert David Lewis-Williams notes, not an invisible, unimportant medium upon which images were incised or inscribed. Rather, the cave wall animated the design."
Lbaird displays slide #28 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb15.htm>.
Lbaird says, " A good example of image-making that incorporates natural rock outcroppings in the design is found at Altamira, the cave where Upper Paleolithic art was first discovered. Here, we find several paintings in which the natural formations of the cave suggested the resulting design. "
Lbaird says, " On the painted ceiling of Altamira, in the central passage, the painting of a curled-up bison fits inside the contours of a rocky projection (Lewis-Williams 114). In the deepest recess of the cave, a mask with eyes has been painted on a rectangular rock face. Other examples abound in many of the caves. These images, writes Lewis-Williams demonstrate an interaction between the shape of the rock and the image-maker (114)."
Lbaird displays slide #29 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb16.htm>.
Lbaird says, " Another example is the panel of Two Spotted Horses at Pech Merle. A protruding, curved line suggests a naturally-occurring horses head on one of the rock walls (Lewis-Williams 243-44). The use of naturally-occurring elements is a common feature of cave art."
Lbaird says, "The spots on the horse were created by smearing paint on the palm of the hand and slapping the cave wall."
Lbaird says, " Negative hand prints occur in association with the spotted horses. A negative hand print was produced by blowing paint onto the surface of the rock. "
Lbaird says, " Regarding the application of paint by spitting Michel Lorblanchet, French archeologist notes: The method of spit-painting seems to have had in itself exceptional symbolic significance to early people. Human breath, the most profound expression of a human being, literally breathes life onto a cave wall. The painter projected his being onto the rock, transforming himself into the horses. There could be no closer or more direct communication between a work and its creator. (qtd. In Lewis-Williams 119-220)."
Lbaird says, " Upper Paleolithic artists used the natural features in their designs as part of the message itself. In McLuhans words, the medium is truly the message in the case of Upper Paleolithic art."
Lbaird displays slide #30 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb17.htm>.
Lbaird says, " Another point about cave art: Expert in Upper Paleolithic Art, David Lewis-Williams writes: The sheer size of the images suggests that they were communally made. People must surely have co-operated in the preparation of paint, construction of scaffolds, outlining the huge images, and then the application of the paint, even if one, or a few, highly skilled people directed the work. "
Lbaird says, " Lewis-Williams continues: The space available in the Hall of the Bulls would have readily facilitated such co-operative labour. In addition, the chamber would have permitted a large number of people to view the images and to perform various rites, of which no evidence now remains. Such activities may well have included dancing, music, and chanting. This is the only part of Lascaux that could have accommodated a large number of people. The Hall of the Bulls may therefore be regarded as a vestibule. . . .(250)"
Lbaird says, " Humans also interacted with the images in ways that suggest a communal ritual may have been enacted in response to the images. Evidence of this shows up as finger fluting or impressions of finger lines made in soft clay. "
Lbaird says, " Jean Clottes of the French Ministry of Culture writes: Finger tracings are everywhere. Their presence depends upon the qualities of the walls : when their surface is soft it becomes possible to draw with ones fingers. Finger tracings are often not naturalistic, with volutes and incomprehensible squiggles that occupy many square meters on the walls and ceilings, as in Gargas and Cosquer (Clottes & Courtin 1996). "
Lbaird displays slide #31 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb18.htm>.
Lbaird says, " Some theorists believe the cave space allowed Upper Paleolithic people to record a transformation narrative. That is, humans believed the cave formed an important link between the material and spirit worlds. Thus, they could move back and forth between the two worlds through the membrane of the cave wall. "
Lbaird says, " Clottes writes: Trying to get into touch with the spirits believed to live inside the caves, on the other side of the veil that the walls constituted between their reality and ours, is a Paleolithic attitude of mind which has left numerous testimonies, particularly the very frequent use of natural reliefs. When ones mind is full of animal images, a hollow in the rock underlined by a shadow cast by ones torch or grease lamp will evoke a horses back line or the hump of a bison. "
Lbaird says, " Clottes continues: How then couldnt one believe that the spirit-animals found in the visions of trance - and that one had expected to find in the other-world which the underground undoubtedly is - are not there on the wall, half emerging through the rock thanks to the magic of the moving light and ready to vanish into it again. In a few lines, they would be made wholly real and their power would then become accessible."
Lbaird displays slide #32 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb19.htm>.
Lbaird says, "This is one of my favorite images of Upper Paleolithic art. Most of the animals are drawn in profile. This is one of the rare images where the animal looks directly at the viewer. Images of lions are rare. So this is an exceptionally unique image."
Lbaird says, "Other animals seem to float in the air. The use made of lamp light and torches emphasizes this sensation."
Lbaird says, " This concludes Part Two."
Lbaird says, " Discussion Welcome. Please consider this point: The use early artists made of the cave reveals a perception about this early writing space that is different from our own. How might we imagine the capabilities of the computer writing space if we consider the example of a pre-historic writing space? In what ways might our own designs change as we consider SCALE, COMMUNAL WRITING, and designs that take into consideration the MATERIAL space of the computer? IS there such a thing as a material space in computer-mediated writing? "
Pete says, "Despite the free-flowing nature of the cave art drawings, theyre nonetheless done on rock. One can hardly imagine a less flexible medium. Im wondering if weve put too much into interpreting how/why they used the rock the way they did? May be it was just necessity?"
KevinJ says, "Facinating, The problem is that most computer systems use a metaphor of a "page" rather than a space. MOOs are spatial by design, the Paleolithic examples are interesting from that standpoint."
Lbaird [to pete] You mean, the image-making was done out of a need to record experience?
Fred says, "I think materiality no longer presents the opportunities for inscribing text and pictures into some thing. The digital world has removed that substance."
KevinJ says, "Do we know what these paintings looklike when viewed using paleolithic lighting systems?"
Lbaird says, "Could we imagine a material substrata to the electronic medium? Fluctuating code perhaps moving around a strange attractor?"
Pete [to Lbaird]: No, I'm not sure why they did it--maybe recreation, maybe record. But my thought is that they were not imagining complex relationships. Maybe they were just doing what they could with what they had.
Fred says, "Caves and walls and vases were the materials of daily existence, and had a special meaning to those people. The computer screen isn't the same thing. A loss, perhaps, but gains in other areas."
Pete [to Fred]: Why isn't it the same thing? While my computer isn't a structural part of my home, it's certainly an integral part of my existence.
Lbaird [to KevinJ] Yes, researchers have taken torch light and candles into the caves. Reports indicate that the lighting angle has much to do with how one sees the images. They seem animated.
Fred [to Pete]: "yes. they didn't really have portable means of saving text and pictures...paper and vellum and stuff.
Lbaird says, "Aren't computer screens similar in that we require lighting to see the images on the screens?"
Fred [to Lisa]: "I think information was much more 'substantial,' more static and permanent and was imbued with quasit religious and sacred meaning.
Fred says, "quasi-religious"
Pete [to Lbaired]: yes, but if we're to be picky it's not the same sort of light at all. For one thing, it's coming from behind the image.
Lbaird [To Fred] These artists were also creating mobilary art in conjunction with the parietal art
Lbaird says, "Yes, I see your point. I wonder if there were some way message could interact with the light source."
KevinJ says, "The people of that timemoved through the space of images as they didthrough real life. I suspect they thought of them as more similar than we do."
Pete [to Lbaird]: There certainly is. I think light has a great deal to do with how a message is received. Light could be a whole field of image inquiry.
KevinJ says, "We make a distiction between image space and physical space."
Lbaird [to KevinJ] Moving through space is the subject of my next part. I think the ability to move through the writing space may be the next move for computer design
Pete says, "I been thinking lately that we've taken the metaphor of space with regrad to writing too far, and that maybe we need a new one."
KevinJ thinks about MOOspace being one...
Lbaird [to Pete] Yes. MOO space and Game space may be the next metaphor
Pete says, "Yes, but both those terms still use the word "space.""
Lbaird [to Pete] Yes. I'm wondering what we could substitute
Fred [to Pete]: "well, the 'space' on the screen that your words appear in is indeed a space.
Fred says, "width and height. just no depth or weight or artifactual existence"
Pete [to Fred]: I agree, and the folder/file metaphor that I find so useful is space-based, as well. But once we begin discussing movement, I begin to question accuracy.
Lbaird says, "The whole notion that there could be a "space" when we are using a "page" as a design structure is problematic. "
Pete says, "Because I'm just not moving through the MOO. I'm accessing different files."
Pete high fives Lisa.
KevinJ says, "It's a problem of design metaphors as I see it, flat page versus 3 space."
Lbaird says, "Shall we move on to part three?"
Pete looks at his watch.
Lbaird displays slide #33 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb20.htm>.
Lbaird says, " I imagine the writing space of the cave as a field of possibility in which modern discursive practices might occur. Might the space of the computer mimic this conceptual space?"
Fred says, "but visually we are seeing what we see in a book. black letters on a white background. I'm not sure this isn't a space, just an insubstantial space."
Lbaird says, " I imagine the field of possibility as free-standing, apart from the computers screen or frame. I can imagine a three-dimensional space where scale can suggest important textual information, such as importance, degree, magnitude. I can also imagine a field of possibility where communal messages constantly are being created and updated. The latest developments in networked spaces are Wikis and Blogs, possibly the precursors to more sophisticated communal spaces."
Barbara says, "we've got about 15 mins to go"
Lbaird [to barbara] Thanks. I'm watching the time
Martine arrives from Conference Center Lobby
Martine leaves for Poster Session Rooms
Lbaird says, " MOO spaces like this one have been around for some time now. I can imagine a MOO space design that takes advantage of the capabilities of the computer to offer three-dimensional imaging, animation, sound, and video junctions. Perhaps we could imagine a more permeable space between user and information."
Lbaird displays slide #35 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb22.htm>.
Lbaird says, " The textual conventions of the page are giving way to more dynamic relationships. The computer age requires that we re-think the aesthetics of the screen. How does the space of the cave help us to re-imagine this aesthetic? Might we make sense of visual/verbal relationships through palimpsest or with dynamic cues such as animation? The possibilities in the computer space seem endless."
Lbaird displays slide #36 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb23.htm>.
Lbaird says, " Perhaps we should go to the game wizards for advice about a new page design. This world of online gaming has already departed from page design. "
Lbaird says, "I am intrigued by my nephews' play with X-Box. He imagines himself inside the game of NFL football. Are there similarities between his role-playing the narratives drawn on the cave walls?"
Lbaird says, " In the game World of Warcraft, for instance, players move through a sophisticated landscape of trees, rocks, and dangerous characters with all kinds of mystical powers. The scale of the space seems to be infinite as characters move from scene to scene. Sophisticated role playing occurs there as human players seem to transform themselves into the characters inside, beyond, through the veil of the computer screen. "
Lbaird says, " Gaming has re-imagined the space of the computer, seeing it not as a tabula rasa, but as a dynamic place mimicking experience. Taking the cues from environments found in game programs, the designs for future texts may be much more dynamic, much more three-dimensional. It may be possible one day to stand inside our own writing space as technology allows ever more dynamic interaction with form."
Lbaird displays slide #37 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb24.htm>.
Lbaird says, " This concludes part three."
Lbaird says, " Discussion is welcome at this time."
Lbaird displays slide #35 on web:
<http://faculty.pnc.edu/lbaird/c%20w%20online%20slides/lb22.htm>.
Lbaird says, "Perhaps our discussion could focus on these questions?"
Fred says, "Wouldn't you think that cave art required more imagination, more mental participation, than video games?"
KevinJ says, "WoW is great but technologically difficult to generate. Writing words on apage can be equally "immersive" and more easily prepared, no?"
Fred says, "or maybe less of a breakdown between 'reality' and spiritualization?"
Lbaird says, "I find role-playing and immersion to be interesting ways to think about the next step texts and writing might take. "
Fred says, "the mythologists talk about less of a divide in early people between material reality and spiritual assumptions."
KevinJ says, "The three versions of LOTR are good examples, the book, the movie and the games. Which is more ppwerful and easier to reproduce?"
Lbaird says, "I can imagine writers being able to place themselves inside the text"
Fred says, "would we be seeing less of a divide between material reality and the game worlds?"
Lbaird says, "I find William Gibson's notions interesting of existing as a non-material spirit inside the world of cyberspace""
Fred says, "the stuff that Neil Stephenson writes about, avatars and virtual existences operating co-equal with what we think of as the real world?"
KevinJ says, "From a viewers standpoint the games are the most flexible as both the movie and book are fixed. "
Pete [to Lbaird]: Yes, but Gibson was also talking about computers that hook directly into one's brain.
Fred [to lisa]: "right, Gibson and Stephenson and the writers of virtual spaces
Lbaird says, "Turkel, as well, imagines multiple identities through cyberspace existence"
Pete says, "of course, that may be the most efficient writing interface we've come up with yet. Currently, I think a good pencil ranks # one in terms of portability and ease of use."
KevinJ says, "There is adistinction between the space we are "in" and the message we are "getting"."
Lbaird [to Pete] Yes, I am not suggestion brain fuses. I am suggestion, though, that we might be able to stand inside a field of possibility in order to manipuate data
KevinJ nods at pete about pencils.
Pete [to Lbaird]: I've been thinking along similar, but not quite identical lines.
Lbaird [to Pete] I'd like to hear more.
Fred [to lisa]: "if we don't allow the virtual world to manipulate us.
Pete [to Fred]: our rhetorical inventions already manipulate us. Why stop now?
Lbaird [to Fred] Yes, I can see how the virtual world could do that.
Fred [to Pete]: "maybe not as much as these immersive virtual worlds may
Lbaird nods to Pete
KevinJ says, "to the stoneage people thier images were manipulatie as well."
Lbaird [to Fred] maybe more? I can imagine that.
Pete thinks about all the English teachers he had who would browbeat using Penguin editions of Shakespeare.
Fred says, "books manipulate us, too, in a way, but the virtual worlds are seductive, in a way like the spiritual worlds invoked by early art/text."
KevinJ says, "To me TEXT is the best VR system ever invented."
Lbaird says, "I think the virtual world is quite seductive since it involves more of our senses?"
Pete [to Fred]: Isn't that a really subjective judgment? I know lots of folks who are so very skeptical of everything online that I would venture to say they're not moved at all.
Fred agrees with Lisa
Robbin arrives from Conference Center Lobby
KevinJ [to lisa]: But those images and sensations are HANDED to us not created by us.
Robbin leaves for Conference Center Lobby
Fred [to Pete]: "yes, but look at their ages. We're going through a two-generation transition, I think.
Lbaird [to KevinJ]Agreed that the images we get are shaped. Can we escape this?
Pete [to Lbaird]: What I've been thinking of has to do with better interfaces--not necessarily GUIs, but better input devices. An IR field over your keyboard to convert gestures into computer commands, for instance.
Lbaird says, "We can still create our own texts -- even more so now with CMC. We are still controlled by the medium, however."
KevinJ [to Lisa]: Yes I think we can by making sure that the distinction between author and "participant" is clearer.
Pete [to Fred]: Hmmm. I used to think so, but now I wonder. I go to a really, really conservative church, and the gap you're describing is more ideological than generational. At least at the church.
Fred [to lisa]: "right now a video game lets us manipulate the action, but only in the ways programmed by the programmer. I think as power increases, the user will have more command over possibilities not envisioned by the programmer.
Fred says, "so I think yes"
KevinJ nods agreement with Fred
Lbaird says, "Yes. The technology has not caught up with our ideas about how to manipulate text."
Lbaird says, "That will conclude my comments."
Pete [to Lbaird]: No, but that's only with regard to those of us who think about it. I think the overwhelming majority of computer users allow the computer and software combo to rule what they write/do with their machines.
Barbara says, "thank you, Lisa!"
Fred says, "I keep going back to the 'illo tempere' of the mythological or spiritual world that was so important to early people. We are creating that other time/space with electronics. The comparison is interesting."
KevinJ says, "Bravo! Lisa well done!"
Lbaird [to Barbara] Many thanks for all your help and support.
Barbara applauds
KevinJ applauds
Fred says, "Yes, very interesting presentation and discussion, Lisa!"
Pete applauds loudly, and cheers.
Fred claps
Lbaird says, "Wonderful input from you all. Many thanks."
Pete says, "Riveting. Absolutely riveting."
Lbaird says, "Such kind words. "
Lbaird says, "takes a bow"
Barbara says, "lunch break/poster viewing is up next and don't forget the keyhnote at 1:15"
Pete says, "I just wish we could have had a real expert here. Like Fred Kemp or somebody."

-- End log: Saturday, February 18, 2006 12:17:20 pm English MOO time --