-- Start log: Saturday, February 18, 2006 10:00:29 am English MOO time --

Charlotte [to Talinn]: everything fine, I just started the recorder so from now on we will have a record on what's going on here.
Talinn says, "Great!"
Charlotte says, "so we will just wait for about 10 min for audience to trickle in?"
Talinn says, "Yeah, that sounds good. It looks like most people are still hanging out in the poster rooms."
Charlotte says, "I need to go there after the conference, since I was the main lobby dog I had no chance yet to look at posters."
Charlotte says, "any that you thought particularly exciting?"
Talinn says, "I started looking at the wiki textbook one, but didn't have much time. I want to check that one out later."
Talinn says, "I'm also interested in the video game one. I have my students doing something like that right now."
Charlotte says, "good, I thought also this was an important topic issue, wiki text books. I saw that they start it also on the German wikipedia page."
Talinn says, "Really! I don't even know what they are:) A couple of my friends are using one in their classes though. I figure this might give mea chance to get up to speed."
Charlotte says, "well I saw on the philosophy page that someone had started a shell for a book on Hans Albert the rationalist contemporary philosopher (1921-). A few had filled into the sections. That seems a good approach."
Talinn says, "Interesting"
Charlotte says, "one thing is that people are hanging out with posters the other that people might cook and do what they do every saturday morning to get ready for the key note round table. BUT..."
Charlotte says, "...don't worry, I will act as your audience with a few questioning voices."
Talinn says, "Okay, thanks :)"
Talinn says, "After all the grief and paranoia, it'll be pretty funny if there's no one here to MOO with :)"
JoelB arrives from Session Room 1
Charlotte says, "That's the trouble with scheduling..."
Talinn says, "Hi Joel--welcome"
JoelB leaves for Session Room 1
Charlotte says, "Hi Joel...howdy"
Heather arrives from Session Room 3
Charlotte says, "Hi Heather"
Talinn says, "Hi Heather!"
Heather says, "Hi"
Talinn says, "We're just waiting a few minutes to get started"
Heather says, "thank you"
Charlotte says, "heather, have we met before?"
Heather says, "I doubt it. Never MOOd before"
Talinn says, "Cool!"
Talinn says, "I've been doing it for a few years now, but very intermittently and badly. Today is a big leap:)"
Charlotte says, "ah, I thought you were possibly heather sehmel a former student at English dept here at ttu."
Charlotte says, "Okay then let's get started with the introduction..."
Talinn says, "Sounds good."
Talinn displays slide #1 on web:
<http://english.ttu.edu/cw/CWO2006/present/startslide.htm>.
Charlotte says, "I present to you Heather, Talinn from Ohio University who will present from her research on "Bill Gates: Americas #1 Teacher of Writing?"
Talinn says, "Thanks, Charlotte"
Talinn displays slide #2 on web:
<http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~tt113795/Bill%20Gates--America's%20%231%20Teacher%20of%20Writing/Phillips1.htm>.
Talinn says, "So here's my title. It's based on the idea that there are many, many times more copies of MS WORD floating around out there than there are writing teachers..."
Talinn says, "I think we ought to be concerned about that--or at least give it some consideration :)"
Talinn displays slide #3 on web:
<http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~tt113795/Bill%20Gates--America's%20%231%20Teacher%20of%20Writing/Phillips2.htm>.
Charlotte knocks on her desk for initiating the presentation.
Talinn displays slide #4 on web:
<http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~tt113795/Bill%20Gates--America's%20%231%20Teacher%20of%20Writing/Phillips3.htm>.
Talinn says, "I hope I'm giving you enough time to read--if not, give a yell. It feels very awkward to sit looking at a slide when I already know what's on it:)"
Charlotte says, "should we give you questions inbetween or better at the end? what do you prefer?"
Heather says, "plenty of time to read, thanks."
Talinn says, "In between, please. If the time gets out of control, I will move us along."
Talinn says, "this comes from Selfe's CCCC's address about 'the perils of not paying attention' to technology. This is the main lens that I'm using as I consider WORD."
Charlotte says, "does this mean that we should not learn from manuals. What is the alternative that Selfe suggests?"
Charlotte says, "I think everything becomes mechanical procudural when you learn along the path of someone else, i.e. the manual writer."
Talinn says, "I don't think Selfe is saying to ignore manuals, but just that we need to examine the underlying ideologies that a program is pushing and then to use the technology critically, not passively."
Charlotte says, "who does Selfe address the considerate scholar or also the considerate average user...the latter I think is illusional."
Talinn says, "I think Selfe would say to -not- use things mechanically. She's interested in surfacing these media which quickly become transparent for us--like WORD."
Talinn says, "Her main audience is actually English teachers, but I think the principle actually applies much more broadly."
Talinn says, "Let me put up the next slide..."
Talinn displays slide #5 on web:
<http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~tt113795/Bill%20Gates--America's%20%231%20Teacher%20of%20Writing/Phillips4.htm>.
Talinn says, "Is anyone familiar with any of these people, by chance?"
Heather says, "Nope."
Talinn says, "Alrighty..."
Charlotte says, "Microsoft seems concerned in sales and continuous sales by satisfied customers, so the critical customer may not be what they want, but the one who learns quickly mechanically."
Talinn says, "I think you're exactly right, Charlotte. Microsoft counts on us being satisfied and not paying much attention."
Charlotte says, "I know some of Selfe and of course Tufte but not Haefner."
Talinn says, "So, Cynthia and Dickie Selfe wrote an article a number of years ago in which they analyzed computer interfaces--particularly the Mac interface at the time."
Talinn says, "they looked at the ways in which it privileged white collar, middle-class culture"
Talinn says, " For example, think about the fact that we have file folders and brief cases and trash cans."
Talinn says, "Tufte wrote a really scathing critique of PowerPoint a couple of years ago. He all but blames PowerPoint for the downfall of western civilization :)"
Charlotte says, "I am pondering about your last dot...the question"
Talinn says, "But what he's examining are the ways in which PPt 'encourages' us, through its programming choices, to make certain decisions. And he argues that a lot of these decisions are both bad design and bad presentation 'pedagogy', for lack of a better word."
Charlotte says, "that might possibly be those involved in visual graphics, have you seen Brasseurs book on cultural critique of visualization?"
Talinn says, "McGee and Ericsson and Alex Vernon, among others, have critiqued the grammar and style checkers of many word processing programs, looking at the way they privilege standardized English and very narrow notions of correct form."
Talinn says, "No, I haven't seen that. What's it called?"
Charlotte says, "check for Lee Brasseur cultural critique, visualizing technical information."
Talinn says, "I'll have to check that out."
Talinn displays slide #6 on web:
<http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~tt113795/Bill%20Gates--America's%20%231%20Teacher%20of%20Writing/Phillips5.htm>.
----------------------------------Talinn-----------------------------------
Teachers were initially hopeful about the teaching possibilities of the checkers, but most teachers have now changed their thinking in light of actual use. McGee and Ericssons article was actually inspired by the inaccuracies of Words grammar checker.
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----------------------------------Talinn-----------------------------------
The AutoCorrect feature privileges grammar pretty heavily by making changes as the writer types. Although we can turn off these features, not everyone knows that nor how to do so. Writers who are unable to turn off the checkers most likely feel that theyve learned to ignore the squiggly red and green lines, but learning to ignore them does not equal being uninfluenced by them.
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Charlotte says, "I think word is wonderful in particular its editing features for virtual team group editing..."
Talinn says, "What kinds of project have you used it on?"
Charlotte says, "yes and these helpers grammar and checker may take the training of composing texts correctly."
Charlotte says, "as non-native English speaker I would not use the grammar checker, but the spell checker."
Charlotte says, "I am using Word edit functions embedded comments and track changes almost every day working on documents with people close by and across the atlantic. Very very useful."
Talinn says, "I'm curious about why you've decided not to use the grammar checker (I don't use it either though, but I'm always curious about what non-native English speakers think of it."
Talinn says, "Yeah, that reviewing tool is my favorite--we're going to talk about that more in a moment."
----------------------------------Talinn-----------------------------------
WORD has received plenty criticism for its infamous checkers, but these are only two components of the program; many others have been left unexamined. I want to give WORD a more comprehensive rhetorical critique in light of what we know about writing instruction, composing processes, and the electronic word.

Im going to remind us of some other components of the program (feel free to offer up more) and so that we can critique them as well.
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Talinn displays slide #7 on web:
<http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~tt113795/Bill%20Gates--America's%20%231%20Teacher%20of%20Writing/Phillips6.htm>.
Talinn says, "Has anyone ever used the 'autosummarize' tool before?"
Heather says, "no."
Talinn says, "It's great for a laugh if you're ever bored:) ..."
Charlotte says, "I would not trust it a bit. I feel more comfortable asking a native speaker to look at my texts and then learn from there another round, thus improving my language ability slowly but steadily. With grammar context is much more important as compared to spell checking...and this can pick simple misspellers and also double words."
Charlotte says, "I am not familiar with autosummarize""
Talinn says, "It's under the tools menu. It's got some algorithm that will automatically generate a summary of a document. You get to control the length, but it does the rest of the 'work'. The results are pretty outrageous."
----------------------------------Talinn-----------------------------------
On the other hand&I think that the very nature of any programthat it contains filesencourages writers to create multiple drafts as they revise and reformulate ideas. We can start drafting and then open a new file and take the paper in a different direction, or save each version of a document for later comparison. The near infinite size and number of files also makes it possible to write for as long as we want and to make substantive changes without burning any bridges.
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Heather says, "yet most students would never do that...""
Talinn says, "would never..? Use the autosummarize?"
Heather says, "would never save each draft in a different file."
Talinn says, "No, I think you're right. It falls into the realm of possible but not probable."
Heather says, "yes"
Charlotte says, "yes exactly and I think that this is the real new development compared to the old paper version. I think it goes back to the lost rhetorical office of "memory" while working on a document in multiple successive versions you start memorizing it and hence are able to modify it much better holistically."
Talinn says, "But I think that most of them do revise within a computer document instead of ripping up their paper pages and starting all over."
Talinn says, "That's a really good point, Charlotte."
----------------------------------Talinn-----------------------------------
I also think newer versions of Word have increasingly recognized that we dont just make arguments with letters on a typed page. We can make visual arguments with fonts, color, page layout, and multimedia, thereby having authority over many things which were formerly production decisions.
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Charlotte [to Heather]: I save all versions until a doc is out.
Talinn says, "I do that when I'm collaborating, but when it's all my own stuff, I usually keep saving over top of things. sometimes I've later regretted that though."
Charlotte says, "Talinn, thanks for your nod on my last longer comment. I do think that digital editing is a new dimension of memorizing. You can play with adding comments, commenting comments, loading the doc with annotations... "
Talinn says, "Yeah, I think those are fantastic features and that they help to counteract the 'dominating' tendencies of things like the grammar checker."
Talinn displays slide #8 on web:
<http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~tt113795/Bill%20Gates--America's%20%231%20Teacher%20of%20Writing/Phillips7.htm>.
----------------------------------Talinn-----------------------------------
The cut and paste and other text movement features encourage writers to make substantive revisions by encouraging them to reconsider their structure and organization. I think the fact that the icons for these commands all appear on the standard toolbar is further evidence that Word encourages meaning making through revision.
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Heather says, "good point."
----------------------------------Talinn-----------------------------------
I see the reviewing tool (I am a HUGE fan of this) as fostering revision through peer feedback. The reviewing tool lets multiple reviewers read and respond in very concrete terms without ever forcing changes upon the original writer. In one sense, the reviewer has complete control to respond to the documentmuch in the way that a teacher would. Perhaps the most useful feature is that the reviewer can also make very specific textual comments. She can highlight a section of text, click on the comment icon, and then write a response specific to the highlighted text.
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Talinn says, "I do virtually all of my grading this way now. I absolutely love it. And most students like it too..."
Charlotte says, "yes cut and paste certainly contributes to the success of the new text processors. It is made easy to test out various phrasings, shuffle a word within a sentence. it really helped me write better and ..."
Charlotte says, "...foremost loosing the writers block..."
Talinn says, "They can understand what I'm referring too much better and can also read my writing."
Talinn says, "Yeah, Charlotte. When I get stuck on a word processor, a lot of times I'll just keep writing what I know is garbage until I get unstuck. I don't think I did that when I still composed on paper."
Charlotte says, "you can start with something absolutely simple label it -1 the next 0 and then 1 with little editing steps it will bring you fast to the first 100w little paragraph."
Heather says, "I've only recently started using reviewer to grade papers electronically. It takes me a LOT longer than writing on papers."
Talinn says, "Really! Part of why I like it is because I think it's faster:) What about it seems like it's slowing you down, I wonder?"
Heather says, "I think I get more caught up in nitty gritty details that I wouldn't worry about on paper because I have the capacity to comment on EVERYTHING."
Talinn says, "That's very interesting. I see what you mean. I do feel compelled to make more comments, I think, because it's possible and I can do it without spending an hour on each paper."
Talinn says, "I also have to fight the tendency to edit a little more, I think--just because I'm so used to also using those features to edit my own stuff."
Talinn says, "So here's the big question:"
Talinn displays slide #9 on web:
<http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~tt113795/Bill%20Gates--America's%20%231%20Teacher%20of%20Writing/Phillips8.htm>.
Charlotte says, "that it is like using a typewriter."
Talinn says, "But is it? I can't cut and paste or review with a typewriter."
Charlotte says, "the keyboard is the same, the screen is about there where you had the paper come out of the roll.#"
Heather says, "cutting and pasting are handy but dangerous. They should be called 'erasing forever.'"
Talinn says, "That's why I love the 'undo' button ;)"
Talinn says, "and I guess that why I don't often save a bunch of versions of my work, sometimes I will create a separate 'notes' file to go along with the paper. When I'm pondering cutting a big passage that I'm really attached to, I'll paste it into that 'notes' file so that I can have it back if I want it."
Charlotte says, "when I wrote a longer doc in the typewriter years we would cut and paste, I mean cut with scissors and then paste with glue...so it is still the same process nothing new, just mechanical and faster and of course much more reliable."
Charlotte says, "and I think one does overlook the tme it takes to think..."
Talinn [to Charlotte]: And now writing teachers talk about using this physical cutting and pasting as a way of teaching revision--especially for kinesthetic learners.
Talinn says, "Do you mean to think through how you're going to revise?"
Charlotte says, " when in the old days we did some cut and paste this would give you plenty of time to think about the text and how to improve it. you would do the thinking at max three times more versions were not possible."
Heather says, "I think there is also less a sense of authorship on screen than on paper."
Talinn says, "Oh, so you mean you would be much more cautious and think through the ramifications of your decision more carefully because it wasn't as easy as it is now?"
Talinn [to Heather]: Could you talk about that some more?
Charlotte [to Talinn]: interesting that it is now acknowledged that pace of writing depends on thinking...and is connected to kinesthetic impressions.
Charlotte [to Talinn]: yes. more careful, less sloppy. Because there was no...ah I do this in the next round.
Heather says, "when what I write looks just like programs and stuff on the internet, there's less a sense that it is 'mine."
Talinn says, "Yeah, I can see how that would be true. I have a hard time now remembering what my composing practices were when I wrote on paper, even though it hasn't been so long ago."
Heather says, "a slippier slope to plagiarism, too"
Talinn [to Heather]: I see what you mean, although I guess I come at it from a different angle. I love that I can make my text look however I want it to--I can overcome my artistic inferiority:)
Charlotte [to Heather]: yes, personal handwriting is lost as indicator of one's doing. Hence, I am still annotating students reports manually. To show them I care personally for their texts.
Heather says, "I agree. Handwriting is more personal."
Talinn [to Charlotte]: Yes, actually handwriting something has taken on much more value, I think. We tend to reserve it for really important things, so it definitely can communicate value to students when we take the time to write by hand.
Charlotte [to Talinn]: yes, text processors are unsurpassed in quick format changes (paragraph styles are a phantastic tool) that is impossible in typewriting.
Talinn says, "I'm going to bring us back to WORD's argument for a minute.."
Heather says, "I'm really interested in your marxist critique of Word. What other examples do you have?"
----------------------------------Talinn-----------------------------------
I argue that WORDs argument is, essentially, confusedthat while many of the more critiqued aspects of the program do indeed encourage a product-privileged pedagogy of writing, that other, less discussed components of the program support a more process-oriented pedagogy. I think we can understand this confusion as Word situated in both literacy and secondary orality, as described by Walter Ong. This and perspective of the program reflects not only the pedagogies it supports, but also the andness of the medium itself.
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Charlotte [to Talinn]: we have another 5 min and then we may close down the discussion.
Talinn [to Heather]: A lot of the Marxist critique has actually been done by others--the Selfes and I think Haefner in particular. Once they kind of raised my awareness about it, I've started to see it in other places though.
Stewart arrives from TechnoRhetorician's Bar and Grill
Talinn says, "Probably the other best example is the really strict hierarchy that programs typically follow (think about files embedded in folders embedded in folders.)"
Talinn says, "Hi Stewart. Glad you could join us."
Charlotte [to Talinn]: conforms with the general container metaphor.
Talinn displays slide #9 on web:
<http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~tt113795/Bill%20Gates--America's%20%231%20Teacher%20of%20Writing/Phillips8.htm>.
Talinn says, "yeah, that's true."
Charlotte says, "did you want to go to slide #10"
Talinn says, "I'm wondering what you all think about the idea of WORD arguing for two (some would say diametrically opposed) things at the same time"
Talinn says, "No, I wanted to make sure that Stewart could see 9."
doug_E arrives from Conference Center Lobby
Talinn displays slide #12 on web:
<http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~tt113795/Bill%20Gates--America's%20%231%20Teacher%20of%20Writing/Phillips11.htm>.
Charlotte says, "I think that is rather normal, lots of technologies serve more than one purpose / objective and hence argue for more than one action."
Talinn says, "I agree. I think at the end of the day, WORD is about making a profit, and so it will add whatever the heck it thinks people want in order to make more $ :)"
----------------------------------Talinn-----------------------------------
I argue that WORDs argument is, essentially, confusedthat while many of the more critiqued aspects of the program do indeed encourage a product-privileged pedagogy of writing, that other, less discussed components of the program support a more process-oriented pedagogy. I think we can understand this confusion as Word situated in both literacy and secondary orality, as described by Walter Ong. This and perspective of the program reflects not only the pedagogies it supports, but also the andness of the medium itself.
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Charlotte [to Talinn]: ah I see (comment on the slide display)
Talinn says, "whoops, wrong paste. jsut a moment."
----------------------------------Talinn-----------------------------------
Ong argues that Western culture is undergoing a transformation from a print-privileging culture to one that is secondarily oral. But secondary orality comes in electric form and cant exist apart from writing and print. Ong writes the electronic transformation of verbal expression has both deepened the commitment of the word to space initiated by writing and intensified by print and has brought consciousness to a new age of secondary orality. As such, electric writing is itself a hybrid medium situated in both print and secondary orality.
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Talinn says, "It looks like we're pretty well out of time, so let me close with this:"
----------------------------------Talinn-----------------------------------
So WORD cant help but argue for both product and process; word processing as a medium inherently values print, which makes product pedagogy possible, as well as a secondary orality revealing itself in process pedagogy that values voice, dialogue, and meaning making.
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metaspencer arrives from Conference Center Lobby
Heather says, "thanks, Talinn."
Talinn displays slide #13 on web:
<http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~tt113795/Bill%20Gates--America's%20%231%20Teacher%20of%20Writing/Phillips12.htm>.
Charlotte says, "thanks Talinn"
Talinn says, "Thanks for coming and typing with me:) (And BTW, I wrote the whole paper in WORD. I hate things about it, but I still use it!)"
Charlotte knocks on her desk wildly in applause for Talinn's presentation.
metaspencer leaves for Conference Center Lobby
Stewart says, "thank you Talinn - fascinating"
Talinn says, "Thanks!"
Talinn says, "thanks for moderating, Charlotte."
Charlotte says, "okay so I will stop the recorder now."

-- End log: Saturday, February 18, 2006 11:02:32 am English MOO time --