-- Start log: Saturday, February 18, 2006 11:17:24 am English MOO time --

Lou the Bartender sees the Sophist going untouched and comes to collect it.
Kendall says, "Hello everyone!"
Kendall says, "Thanks for coming today."
Locke says, "howdy"
doug E . o O ( I was holding that Sophist in reserve! )
cball is glad to be here
Shaun folds hands on desk, ready to begin
Kendall says, "Today we will enjoy Paula Rosinski's presentation, "Making Knowledge in a Multimedia Authoring Minor: The Interface Between Professional Writing & Rhetoric and Computer Science." Paula Rosinski is currently at Elon University."
Kendall displays slide #1 on web:
<http://english.ttu.edu/cw/CWO2006/present/startslide.htm>.
Kendall thinks she is probably the person least likely to be helpful in the room, but she'll her best.
Paula [to Kendall]: is it ok to start now?
Kendall [to Paula]: yes!
Paula says, "Hi everyone"
Paula says, "thanks for coming to my talk"
cball applauds
Paula says, "display 2 on web"
Paula displays slide #2 on web:
<http://facstaff.elon.edu/prosinski/cw2006/pr1.htm>.
Paula says, "As this slide indicates, I have some background information to share first"
Paula says, "But please ask questions or make comments at any time"
Paula says, "And before I move on I'd like to mention a few things"
Paula says, "first, the logo for our minor was created by a student"
cball says, "i love it!"
Paula says, "I should have given credit for that (the students were thrilled to create the logo!)"
Paula says, "thank you"
Paula says, "And also I'm using Elon's minor more as a springboard for discussion about such curricular issues"
Paula says, "because of course the institutional context plays a big part in curricular design"
Paula displays slide #2 on web:
<http://facstaff.elon.edu/prosinski/cw2006/pr1.htm>.
Paula says, "display 3 on web"
Paula displays slide #3 on web:
<http://facstaff.elon.edu/prosinski/cw2006/pr2.htm>.
Locke says, "is there also a major? Or is your mission entirely to be a minor for these other Majors?"
cball is curious why the dean wanted such a spanning minor.
Paula says, "No there isn't a major. It's mission was to be a minor to other majors -- to make connections across majors"
Aimee says, "Did desire to distinguish Elon from other area universities play a part in his/her desire for the major? Is that what is meant by the slogan, "standing out above the rest"?"
Paula says, "At Elon we are encouraged to be creative with curriculum"
Aimee says, "His/her refers to the dean."
doug_E says, "that's really interesting -- it's like the connective tissue that traditionally is supplied by the liberal arts core at other places, or a new version of WAC...this has the potential to be really powerful I think."
Paula says, "And the Dean wanted to see the Arts and Sciences connected. And he supported this minor because the institution does a pretty good job supporting integrating tech into our teaching"
Shaun agrees with Doug
Paula says, "And more than just integrating tech into our teaching, but we wanted to try and create a place where we might think about, and have students think about, how tech is changing DISCIPLINARY knowledge"
Paula says, "Doug, "connective tissue" is a good way to put it"
cball says, "wow, that is powerful. i can't see this happening easily at a non-liberal-arts-focused college or university."
cball says, "because disciplinary knowledge is so, um, segmented according to fields."
Paula says, "And Aimee, I think the Dean IS aware of how Elon looks to others looking in, so this may have played a role, I'm not entirely sure"
Paula says, "As for the student logo, I thought it was interesting and telling what they decided to include in it, in terms of disciplines"
Paula says, "Another goal was to get faculty in arts and sciences collaborating"
Paula says, "And the students signing up are about what we expected (in terms of their majors)"
cball [to Paula]: can you give us an example of fac collaboration?
Paula says, "Sure. I've sat in on all the cs classes, and I co-teach the senior seminar with a computer science faculty member, and I am working on an article with another computer science faculty member"
cball says, "cool"
Shaun says, "that's pretty collaborative collaboration!"
Kendall says, "Fabulous."
Paula says, "And in terms of content, we talk about composing in computer science vs. professional writing, rhetorical awareness in both disciplines"
Paula says, "One of my talking points deals with this"
Paula says, "I'll move onto the next slide now"
Paula displays slide #4 on web:
<http://facstaff.elon.edu/prosinski/cw2006/pr3.htm>.
Paula says, "I'll describe each course in more detail"
Paula says, "And as you'll see, the cs courses especially have gone through some unofficial revision"
Paula displays slide #5 on web:
<http://facstaff.elon.edu/prosinski/cw2006/pr4.htm>.
Paula says, "This was conceived as an intro course to get students thinking critically about using various technologies to create texts"
doug_E says, "that looks like it be fun to teach!"
Paula says, "yes it really is fun to teach!"
Paula says, "and it's nice to get students from different disciplines too, because they will approach the same topics from very different places"
Shaun says, "I'm wondering... do you have a First Year Composition requirement at Elon?"
Paula says, "which makes for some good discussion about how texts change in online spaces or how disciplines are affected"
Paula says, "Yes, we have a first-year freshman writing course, which I happen to coordinate"
Shaun bets Paula is busy...
Paula says, "It takes a rhetorical approach to writing, in the academy, in personal life, in civic life...why do you ask?"
Shaun says, "I ask for two reasons..."
Shaun says, "1) I wonder what they "come to ENG 212 with" and"
Shaun says, "2) if faculty from other disciplines worry students "do do enough 'writing'""
Shaun says, "but I bet the FYC mitigates those concerns"
Paula says, "They come to 212 with everything and nothing (in terms of writing and technologies)"
Shaun laughs, nods
Paula says, "I would never want to teach the class in a way that turned certain students away because they didn't have certain writing/tech experience"
Aimee says, "On a note related to Shaun's question--Looks like the minor grounds students in rhetorical and design theory. You mentioned earlier that the minor also gets faculty from the arts and from the sciences working together. Do those from the sciences incorporate any of the theory taught in the English and art classes? If so, how?"
Paula says, "But what this means then is that I end up doing lots of mini-sessions with different groups of students, and I wonder if this is an experience others have had in teaching such a course?"
cball says, "i've only taught such a course for non-english majors (as an upperdivision elective) and so all the students needed tech and writing guidance"
Paula says, "Aimee, good question, because part of the point of the minor is to teach all the courses from a "rhetorical perspective" -- "
Shaun says, "that's encouraging to hear for the field"
Paula says, "A few assumptions underlying the minor's design was that composing takes a variety of forms and uses a variety of media, and those acts of composing are always rhetorically grounded and affect disciplinary understanding"
Kendall [to Paula]: perhaps we should move to the next slide.
Paula says, "ok"
Paula displays slide #6 on web:
<http://facstaff.elon.edu/prosinski/cw2006/pr5.htm>.
Paula says, "This class does include theoretical discussions about visual language and design"
Paula says, "I hesitated to include some of the software used in the classes on these slides, because all the faculty have agreed we don't want the minor to be about *learning software* or skills and drills kind of knowledge "
Shaun says, "The classes you've shown us so far have specific, named technologies associated with the... is that in the wording of the course design or just your slides?"
Shaun says, "heh, beat me to it"
Shaun says, "My Eforum is about this very issue"
cball says, "it's great that you all agree on the no-tools-based classes. smart move."
Paula says, "I included the software as examples for you"
Shaun says, "got it, but I have trouble with this attitude (won't get into it now)"
Paula says, "Yes we have all agreed on it but it can be difficult to work against student perceptions of this"
Paula says, "And I struggle with it too, because unless students have some working knowledge of some software, they can't move onto the production stage, and we don't want them to just remain in the criticism stage"
Shaun agrees
cball nods
Paula says, "And I didn't intend to get into this...and this may be controversial to say.."
Shaun says, "Say it!"
cball lol
Paula says, "but i have found that it is often the female students who are more intimidated by the technologies, so i want to make sure i demystify some of the software for them"
cball nods
cball thinks that's totally true in her experience
Paula says, "I'll go onto to the next slide if no one is going to attack me for that comment?!!"
Shaun has seen some indication of the same
doug_E says, "I've found that male students are just as intimidated in some respects -- they just aren't willing to admit it..."
Paula says, "that's a good point doug. and it may be both..."
Paula says, "here's the next slide"
Paula displays slide #7 on web:
<http://facstaff.elon.edu/prosinski/cw2006/pr6.htm>.
Shaun says, "why the change?"
Paula says, "At first I was only going to share the description of this course as it is taught currently, but then I realized that the CHANGES it has gone through are telling"
Paula says, "Shaun nice of you to prompt my question"
Shaun says, "that's what I'm here for! ;-)"
cball says, "very telling, indeed. shows the intwredisciplinarity better"
Shaun nods
Paula says, "As originally conceived, the "humanities" type students were really struggling"
doug_E says, "shifts the focus from an instrumental techology use to one that benefits users (rather than the system itself)"
Paula says, "and the cs faculty member was struggling to teach the course"
Shaun says, "Nice point, Doug"
Paula says, "and doug's comment is also relevant here - "
Paula says, "Because we went back to WHY this minor was created"
Paula says, "And it wasn't to give all the studnets the ability to install a server, but rather to give the students enough knowledge about such issues to make better decisions in regard to the rhetorical context"
cball needs to scoot out and will check back on the archives for more good info about this presentation.
cball (asleep) has disconnected.
Paula says, "next slide"
Aimee [to Paula]: That the CS faculty member struggled to teach the course also goes to my earlier question. How much collaboration between disciplines when on in organizing syllabi, assignments, etc? Sounds like the CS instructor had to learn and apply some rhetorical and design theory himself/herself.
Paula displays slide #8 on web:
<http://facstaff.elon.edu/prosinski/cw2006/pr7.htm>.
Paula says, "Aimee, there has been some collaboration but we could do a better job. And the course as currently taught has been more successful for students because they can get into issues of user needs and expectations more "
Shaun says, "interesting... similar issues about the change"
Aimee [to Paula]: How much collaboration between disciplines WENT on in organizing syllabi, assignments, etc?--Apologies for the typo.
Paula says, "Yes, again a change in the course, and again for similar reasons."
Paula says, "I explained these changes as "unofficial" because they haven't been approved by a curriculum committee, but rather the faculty in the minor working through how to improve the classes"
doug_E says, "I can see why the database class was changed...but I'm not sure about leaving out the database design component -- can you talk about that decision a bit?"
Paula says, "Aimee, there was complee disclosure early on, we all shared syllabi. But it is time to share again and make more connections b/w our classes"
Paula says, "yes Doug, I was more disappointed about the change in the database class than in the other one"
doug_E says, "I find taht in my own work, I have a lot of ideas about how to build systems that can help me do what I want, but I need both the rhetorical/design experience and at least a basic knowledge of database design in order to make them work...otherwise I have to rely on what someone else--someone with different goals or understandings of my needs--has already creaed."
Kendall says, "Can't you make the argument that designing a database has many rhetorical issues?"
The housekeeper arrives to cart cball off to bed.
doug_E [to Kendall]: exactly so
doug_E fires his typist
Paula says, "The point of the minor was to give students opportunities to see how other disciplines use technologies to communicate and create texts, and to give students ENOUGH UNDERSTANDING of these other disciplines to carry on conversations and collaborate on projects"
doug_E [to typist]: bad dog, no biscuit!
Paula says, "Doug has hit the nail on the head"
Paula says, "Doug said - "but I need both the rhetorical/design experience and at least a basic knowledge of database design in order to make them work...otherwise I have to rely on what someone else--someone with different goals or understandings of my needs--has already creaed.""
doug_E says, "so, do they get enough understanding of database design to effectively collaborate, or do they primarily get the how-to-use the database part?"
Aimee [to Paula]: Does this class--CIS 320--include any information design/architecture theory?
Paula says, "And the decision was made that too much time was being spent on designing the database, which often wasn't very successful anway, to the expense of considering the wider communicative issues"
doug_E is not trying to be overly critical of the course, he just wanted to know more about the details...
doug_E says, "that makes sense"
Shaun says, "yep"
Kendall says, "I can see how that would present a time crunch."
Paula says, "Doug you are asking the exact questions that made me want to give this presentation"
doug E . o O ( especially after all the time I've spent badly designing databases myself! )
Paula says, "And it is a talking point of mine. Should this class, as originally conceived, be put back into the minor?"
Kendall [to Paula]: a little less than 15 minutes left.
Paula says, "I'd like to hear what you all have to say to that question, if not now at a later time"
Paula says, "ok next slide. good thing you are here, kendall"
Paula displays slide #9 on web:
<http://facstaff.elon.edu/prosinski/cw2006/pr8.htm>.
Shaun says, "what scale and maturity-level of projects are you getting out of this?"
Paula says, "I co-teach this course with a cs faculty member,"
Paula says, "I am now teaching this course a second time"
Shaun says, "are you happy with what is essentially a performance of thesuccess of the minor?"
Aimee says, "Also, what are the assignments and how do you sequence them? "
Paula says, "As with many classes taught the first time, we weren't completely pleased with the projects, which we take as our responsibility"
Shaun says, "sure"
Shaun understands this curriculum is a work in progress, and an innovative and exciting one at that
Paula says, "First time around we were nervous to use real clients, but this time we have 2 real clients who have real multimedia needs"
Shaun says, "cool"
Kendall says, "I'm doing something a little less ambitious in my tech comm class and I love it!"
Paula says, "The first time around the projects included: a database for our general studies department cataloguing media available and instructional materials on how to use the database"
Paula says, "an interactive and social site for teenagers"
Paula says, "an informational site for a design studio"
Paula says, "As you can see, all web based, you could even argue too web based"
Shaun says, "impressive in scale, if not execution"
Paula says, "Here's is my next slide"
Paula displays slide #10 on web:
<http://facstaff.elon.edu/prosinski/cw2006/pr9.htm>.
Paula says, "I'll point out that the last "strength" is also listed as a weakness"
Paula says, "Working with computer science and humanities students brings both advantages and challenges. "
Shaun says, "interesting that 'Diverse student academic experiences and expectations' is a weakness"
Shaun says, "sure (re: challenges)"
Aimee says, "I'd imagine the diversity made it difficult to set goals, objectives, grading rubrics. Has having to grade multi-disciplinary, multi-media projects affected/changed how you guys evaluated projects and designed grading rubrics? "
Robbin arrives from Conference Center Lobby
Shaun says, "I wonder if, to decrease the 'web' focus, an set of documents could be designed"
Paula says, "But that is to be expected and can lead to valuable discussions in the class. And the collaboration b/w the two "kinds" of studnets has been meaningful"
Shaun says, "kinda like a PR media plan"
Robbin leaves for Conference Center Lobby
Paula says, "Yes we have tried to include such documents, like proposals, usability test materials"
Paula says, "Next slide, so we can actually get to talking points"
Kendall [to Paula]: 5 minutes left.
Shaun says, "whoopee!"
Paula displays slide #11 on web:
<http://facstaff.elon.edu/prosinski/cw2006/pr10.htm>.
Shaun says, "well, among working professionals, these are often very different jurisdictions, but..."
doug_E would agree with the linked-ness of this kind of authoring, although t doesn't have to be *multi* media necessarily
Shaun says, "it'd be better if they were *not* so separate "
doug_E says, "I'd also add that rhetoric should be in the mix as well; perhaps as the overarching framework that lets these different disciplines collaborate"
Paula says, "The next talking point slide gets at this question from antoher angle"
Paula says, "Doug, thanks for setting up my next slide"
Paula displays slide #12 on web:
<http://facstaff.elon.edu/prosinski/cw2006/pr11.htm>.
Shaun nods to Doug
Paula says, "In the interest of time, I'll just blurt out that I'd argue that rhetorical knowledge is being created"
Kendall says, "At Texas State the CS department reached out to us, because they perceive their work requiring more of a writing/rhetorical focus."
Shaun says, "I'm excited that, by teaching 'tech writers' about CS, they might be more empowered to play a more central role than documenting after creation"
doug_E says, "A lot of the work I'm currently into really lies at the intersections of CIS/LIS and PW -- and (again), it's rhetoric that provides the glue."
Shaun says, "well blurted!"
Locke says, "Each discipline sees the other as a kind of support container, something to help them achieve their primary goals. "
Aimee says, "I'd argue--had have in my dissertation--that you have to have rhetorical savvy to program, particularly higher end products like simulations where programmers must make and justify ad hoc decisions (i.e., setting initial parameters, eliminating system features). "
Paula says, "But there are difficulties inherent in this (teaching such a course, the pedagogy, the difficulty in keeping up with changes in pwr and cs, in territory concerns, etc.)"
Aimee says, "So I'd say it's not only useful but necesary to draw parallels between writing code and other types of writing."
Kendall says, "I think writing code and writing text are very similar and students benefit from the comparison, because they don't think of it at first."
doug_E says, "and Jeff Grabill the other day said something that is simple, yet important: the product of knowledge work is writing."
Paula says, "Locke, that is well said. "
Paula says, "May I quote you as we talk about revising the minor?"
Locke says, "sure -- "
Shaun says, "I've gotta quote Grabill!"
Paula says, "What do you think of the question about parallels b/w writing code and other types of writing?""
Kendall says, "Technically our time is up. Paula do you want to do a wrap-up."
Paula says, "yes thank you"
Locke says, "I think you could see similar relationships with creative writing -- computer science may need creative writers to help create bvelievable spaces in games, for example, but the writers are still subcontractors -- creative writers may need rhetorical/production-oriented people like ourselves to help put together a multi-=media journal, but don't see us as central to the aesthetic value of creative writing"
Shaun says, "Very interesting stuff Paula"
Aimee [to Paula]: Read my comments above re: the parallel between writing code and other types of writing.
Paula says, "One of the talking points I am sorry we didn't get to was about whether this minor was a move more towards a "Humanities computing" model"
Shaun says, "I continue to be impressed by the curricular innovation happening at Elon"
Paula says, "Also, I will show my last slide about some complications I have confronted"
Shaun says, "can you place this presentation online somewhere?"
Paula displays slide #16 on web:
<http://facstaff.elon.edu/prosinski/cw2006/pr15.htm>.
Shaun says, "awwWWW.. I wanted to hear about the *fiasco*!"
Aimee [to Shaun]: I second Shaun's request. May we have the web address of your presentation?
Paula says, "I have enjoyed working with my cs colleagues on this minor, but I have really appreciated getting feedback from my disciplinary colleagues today. Thank you!"
Shaun claps enthusiastically
Paula says, "yes, please send me your emails at prosinski@elon.edu and I can share my slides and additional documents if you want"
Shaun says, "great, thanks"
Kendall says, "Yes, Paula please provide the web address, but all the presentations will be archived at the computers and writing website. We'll send out an e-mail to all the participants about where to locate them."
Paula says, "And to others, if you have thoughts about the humanities computing model, or writing code vs. prose, I'd be interested in talking with you some more"

-- End log: Saturday, February 18, 2006 12:23:48 pm English MOO time --

Paula displays slide #17 on web:
<http://facstaff.elon.edu/prosinski/cw2006/pr16.htm>.